I'll look for the link but I'm pretty sure the research doesn't support you: elite cyclists do very little pulling up.

EDIT...never mind, charles vail produced a good reference in an earlier post.

Sure, but the pros would use it even if it provided only 0.05% increased efficiency or reduced the likelihood of slipping off the pedal by only 0.01%. The advantages are probably much smaller than many people assume, and aren't necessarily realized by all cyclists.

Don't like clipless? Don't wear 'em.

Nuff said.

Any advantage is an advantage. It is likely the combination of many very small advantages that add up and make the ride "easier".

This thread is timely for me. I just installed PowerGrips on my pedals this week. Got my feet into them nice and snug. Almost no wiggle room, so while these aren't clipless, I can't see how clipless could have hardly any more effect.

Have ridden on them twice, and didn't notice any difference at all in terms of effort. They did keep my feet in good position, and I don't always do that.

I'll keep them on for a while, but may be eyeing some of those nice, wide cruiser pedals I spotted the other day.

There was a similar thread on this and someone posted a chart that showed which muscle groups used in each part of the pedal stroke. Very little energy used during the back part of the motion.

Even I have to work and think at pedalling in a full circle but in normal riding, I am pushing and pulling for 75% of that crank movement. That is just the natural pedalling stroke that I have got into and if you talk to clipless riders- you will probably find they are about the same.

That 100% circle does come in very handy on the steep sit down hills that just go on and on and on and...
Then I get to the very steep parts and it all goes out of the window as it is out of the saddle and struggle with the down stroke only.

I am not saying that pedalling on the upstroke is more efficient or faster or easy. All I know is that at the end of a long ride-my legs are not the bit of my body that hurts.
As to the efficiency- I know that if I am not using a clipless pedal- then I will be using leg power that will not be getting to the back wheel.

Even though I am a recreational rider, I do enjoy riding fast and have lots of hills and mountains to deal with on any ride. in an effort to minimize pain and increase efficiency, I paid for a pro fitting that included finding my body flexibility, better than many crit racers half my age, and with some magic formula, know where everything should be, incluing cleat position. This fitting was good for a speed increase and had the desired effect of reducing pain.

During the fit/coaching session the discussion touched on pedal technique. From my recumbent riding, with a great deal of recline, I did develop a pull that was more than enough to feel pressure on the top of the shoe, but I was never able to get that degree of pull while riding the Trek. He told me, circa three years ago, that the current spin training was to "kick forward" at the top and "scrap mud" off the bottom of the circle, don't think about pushing down or pulling up.

I found that changing my thoughts about how to apply the power had the effect of increasing my spin by 5-10 rpm, but more of interest to this thread, on a long hard grind, if I concentrated on that, to the exclusion of the usual downward push, I gained 1-1.5 mph over just pushing. He said they had data of pros on trainers with infrared film showing where the muscles were working to support this, but even if not true, I have a result I like, and others I've told about this confirm the increase in climbing speed.

Also, in favor of clipless and speed, I've hit bad spots in the pavement that lifted me off the saddle. I came back down right where I was because my feet were attached.

When I ride a bike w/o clipless, my feet slide off, usually on the bottom of the stroke. While I've not tried soft soled shoes and pedals with teeth to grip, I can't imagine that that combo would hold me to the bike on a 30+ mph descent.

I've found that it's not so much the pulling up but the "ankling," i.e. pushing over the top when I remember to do it that makes 1-2mph difference. Efficiency boils down to good pedalling action and is probably independent of clips or clipless pedals.

I trust the reference above because of his credentials as a real racing coach, physician and winning Cat 1 racer. Racers use what they get paid to use because sponsors want to sell products. Clip in pedals and shoes allow real racers to pedal hard and fast over rough roads with less concern for keeping their feet on the pedals. While fine for racing, these features don't translate to convenience to non racing cyclists especially when you consider the small performance gains. In a racing scenario, any gain can mean the difference between winning and losing. For the rest of us, a few seconds difference over many miles does nothing but support our fantasies.

The larger picture I am trying to present, is the fact that, cycling doesn't require all the specialized, expensive and inconvenient gear to enjoy it. Further, a versatile set up that allows walking and ease of use coupled with low cost and flexability in use is better for most of us. Looking less like a comic book super hero and being able to do other things, off the bike, rank pretty high in my book too.

A link to a different approach to cycling
https://ramblings.cyclofiend.com/?cat=10

Let it go, boys.

Let it go.

I get your point. I just don't see why you have to use perjorative language (comic book super hero) to make it. If you don't like the stuff, don't use it. Why try to elevate yourself by putting down others? I don't see the point of that.

That't not really ankling. Ankling is when you lift the front of the foot at the top and drop it at the bottom so your ankle flexes and extends with every stroke. It has long been discredited.
https://sheldonbrown.com/gloss_an-z.html#ankling
https://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ankling.html

Agree. You either ride clipless or you don't. The choice is yours.

I like comic book super heros. For some reason I loved Green Lantern growing up. I don't know why. I think it would be cool to have a kit that made me look like him. I don't take it personal.

I wonder if Spider Man goes clipless. Considering his climbing efficiency and his speed, I'm thinking that he surely must. I can't imagine Spider Man using pedals. And if he did, Kirsten Dunst would be wise to dump him.

As they say around here, 'I don't have a dog in this fight' but I will say that if a person wants to ride clipless and wants to increase efficiency a local guy might have the answer.

He does group rides with one foot clipped in for about half the ride (10-12 miles) and then uses the other foot for the rest of the ride. He also appears to have about 1% body fat and looks like the cover of an anatomy text.

As for me, my knees are sooooo bad that I'm afraid to even try clipless. If I fell, and was clipped in, it would possibly mean a TKR (Total Knee Replacement).

My $.02. I've ridden platforms w/out retention of any type, platforms w/ clips, straps & flat shoes , the same with cleated bike shoes & clipless. I have no scientific proof, but I have to believe retention is more efficient than no retention. I also think clipless is more efficient than clips & cleated shoes, but the main advantage is comfort. Pulling the straps tight enough was just uncomfortable especially on long rides. Now, my livelihood does not depend on whatever efficiency gains (if any!) I get from using clipless over no retention, so it really comes down to what's more fun. I don't commute and rarely stop when I ride, so for me clipless is the way to go. I feel a much better connection to the bike than w/out retention. If I was commuting or riding to Star$s I might have a different answer.

Dan

I just read this entire thread, I greatly appreciate the non-biased opinions and responses.
One thing I think most agree on is those "Clips" or cages on the pedals are not real good.

The clipless units seem to be a little more efficient, with some learning, can keep the foot on the pedal in those heated moments.
On the down side, folks like me who ride with anything from steel toed work boot to sandals kinda rules them out on my cargo bike. Not to mention the added cost$$$$$.
On the dirt I got my own ideas.
But when I get my road bike I want for a year now, I just may put clipless pedals on it and MTB shoes.

I do have a concern, I have tried clipless, pros/cons bla bla bla, but whats this talk about knee pain?
I ride because the doc told me to for my knees, will clipless pedals affect that?

That's a quirky way to ride but it offers no insight on the efficiency of clipless. Maybe he has 1% body fat because his riding style is so inefficient that he burns off way more calories than the rest of you.

Sometime pedals are set up so your foot is at a slightly uncomfortable angle, and over a long ride that can cause knee discomfort. However if you adjust the cleats to the right angle, and if your cleats and pedals allow some "float" (at little looseness so you can adjust the tilt of your foot) you should be okay. Also try to use the lowest gear and highest pedalling cadence you are comfortable with ("spinning"). That is better for your knees than pedalling hard in a high gear ("mashing"). There's also a claim that shorter cranks are better for your knees, since you can still have the same leg extension at the bottom, but don't have to bring your knees as high at the top.

I sure use em on my bent, more to keep my feet on the pedals which is more important in a bent position than an upright.
Thinking about though, I think it does increase my power a bit, the powerstroke being from about 10 to about 5. But maybe all it does is increase the inertia of my legs and reduce drag for the other leg, but even with only that as a helping factor think they help come end of the day.

I appreciate the information shared here that questions the standard assumptions about clipless pedals. As a long-time researcher, and audiophile, I have participated in many experiments have disproven common assumptions. With many of the believers in those assumptions refusing to accept the proof, even if they have no viable counterargument. I'm of the mindset that everything should be questioned ... and then questioned again. Drives my wife crazy.

As this subject intrigues me, I will keep poking around for more data. I love doing that ... it is one of my favorite hobbies.

I could see how the equation could vary significantly for a bent, especially one where the BB is above the seating position.

Here's an interesting read, a report from the Cycling Science Symposium & Expo. Several things in it, including a session on "private numbness."

At this symposium, an expert bike fitter did say that clipless pedals helped his business because it locked in cyclists to riding for extended periods in a fixed, repetitive position. This increased injuries unless one had a very good fit. They didn't address the pedaling efficiency issue.

https://www.velonews.com/tech/report/...s/11555.0.html

Think about your feet on the pedals.

With no retention system, you have to maintain light pressure on the pedal as it comes up the back side or the circle in order to maintain contact between your foot and the pedal. That's "wattage" that you have to put out that's actually working against you. Forget about pulling up on the backside, just think about being able to push down less hard on the backside.

Mini toe clips are a little bit of help. Toe clips and straps are better, but your feet can still "escape" from time to time. Clipless pedals systems work better.

I ride clipless on all my bikes, and have done so since the early 1990's... I have a 'beater' bike that I decided to install "campus" pedals on--so I could ride it in street shoes. Yes, it works, but I am so used to riding clipless that I found my feet coming off the pedals (and scraping my shin)-- I still have the campus pedals on the bike, but I tend to ride it with the biking shoes (mnost of the time), so I can clip in... I think it is a matter of personal preference, but having gone through the whole gambit over the years-- I had clips and cleats, which I thought were az great improvement over platforms, then went to the first generation Look pedals in the late 80's... Then spds for the mountain bike and commuter-- newer generation Looks on my road bike-- I won't go back-

train safe-