You be the judge. Here is my ride from today. The first 42 mi was the club ride, then I threw my bike into another guys truck and we all went for a bagel. I rode from the bagel shop to the aquatic center to watch my grandson's swimming lesson. Then I rode home.

https://connect.garmin.com/activity/32590502


Each club sets it's own ranges for ride grades. I hung with the A group most of the ride, but on the long stretch out lox Road I got dropped after I did my pull at 26 mph. My heart rate was up about 95% and I just couldn't hold the wheel after my pull. We try to keep together on the Saturday rides except for some areas like lox road where we tend to form groups. I hang with the A group as long as I can. Some days its all the way. Today it was not.

I don't claim to be an A rider. I'm B+ at best. By our groups definition anyway. At my age I doubt if I'll ever really get to a solid A. On the Sunday ride there are enough people we have a lot more groups. The A and A + group start out together and string out after a while. The B and B+ start a few minutes later. The pick up people like me who drop out of the A group after a while.

On the plus side, I did stay on the small ring for most of the ride and kept my cadence up. 88 is the best average cadence I've had. Usually I'm about 80 - 82.

I must be missing something. I got to about 119 RPM this morning and my stroke started to cause me to start bouncing around in the saddle saddle a bit. I could hold 115 no problem. If I was sprinting I would have been dropping the RD but I was trying for that high cadence. I'm not sure I could get it much over 120. I'm not sure there would be much usable power for me there. I'm thinking like a 2 stroke motorcycle I've got a power band - 85 to 105 in my case - and over it I'm not creating efficiencies and under it extra effort with no speed.

I did notice as I warm up my cadence increases. I've known that but really paid no attention to it because I know I'm warming up. When I'm going I hold 90 to 95. I can move it up to 110 but I'll start to tire if I hold it even in a lower gear. I'll deliberately do that (move my cadence up) before a climb to have some leg "inertia" for the early part of the climb.

Interesting you mention that. I've noticed that, and as I think about it I'm wondering if it is slower reflexes as we age, or higher cadence requires a slightly different pedaling technique.

If it's just slower reflexes, I'm not sure there is much that can be done. Perhaps there is some training that might improve things a bit, but at 62 I wonder just how much improvement can be gained, and if the physical deterioration curve isn't overcoming the improvement curve. At some point it's inevitable.

As I sit here at the computer thinking about a high spin rate and bouncing, I wonder if it might not be minimized by thinking about pedaling while concentrating on the push forward, pull back phases of the pedaling stroke. That might decrease the bounce caused by trying to quickly push down. I'll have to give that a try next week. I'm going to start doing some cadence intervals a la Hermes' coach's formula. I've already plugged it into my 305 as a custom workout.

I'm also going to plug in A-Jet's cadence pyramid formula, but I'm not sure were to start. Once I get a feel for how I do with Hermes' interval, I'll modify Jet's Pyramid. Then on my Tuesday training session I'll alternate.

Today I did concentrate on keeping in the small ring except when over 25mph. That kept my cadence up, and I averaged 88 for 42 mi. That's unheard of for me.

Training at high cadence will improve the pedal stroke and eliminate the bouncing. Riders new to high cadence will push down too hard and not across the bottom causing the bounce. If you were to spend some time developing higher cadence using drills the bouncing would be the limiter to how high you can pedal. As you get more efficient the rpm's increase. Coming back from my ankle fusion surgery this winter was a re-learning process for my timing and mechanics when doing high cadence drills. I started out at the class's C level due to my bouncing at higher cadences where it felt like I was sitting on a jack hammer handle. After working on getting the balance back in my stroke I eventually worked back up to the A level and was able to maintain cadence of 190 for 30 seconds by April.

When doing the higher cadence spinups think about using your feet to produce the higher cadences and not pushing down with the legs. Make sure you are in a very easy if not the easiest gear. A trainer is even better for the drills due to the constant resistance. It's almost like telling your feet to "push-pull, push-pull, push-pull...", if that makes any sense. Oh yea, remember to breath.

It may take a few weeks to months of efforts to train the muscles to fire in sequence at higher cadences. I believe it is trainable since I couldn't maintain 120rpms for longer than 2 minutes three years ago.

think circles

Is this the equivalent of "ride lots"?

My track coach tells me to spin circles with my knees at 120+ rpm and to relax and let it flow! All this behind a motorcycle at 35mph. I feel like I'm cheating on my road bike when I'm cruising at 28 mph and only spinning @ 105 rpms.

Maybe this is a difference between fixed gear and freehub. The little bit I've used a fixed gear on my SS (a flip flop type hub) or used a spinner at the gym I can see where you can build up momentum to keep you spinning at high RPM. On a fixie behind a derney that's geared low (the bike) I guess you'd have to spin to keep up. On my freehub I spin it out to no resistance and want to reach for that higher gear for the resistance. Without the momentum or the resistance I start bobbing around.

'nuff said

Mine hasn't. (I've always been a masher. )

The difficulty in getting through the 120rpm range has a bit to do with the body's "harmonics" as much as anything else, from what I have read and experienced. It's a bit like a bike getting the speed wobbles.

It's a fine line between being relaxed and maintaining a very level and steady pelvis and not letting the torso move about... in other words, letting your legs do the movement.

You can feel the low-frequency "vibration" in your torso, especially if you have a few layers of adipose tissure going -- it starts moving up and down, but it can't move up and down fast enough in time with your legs. Hence the need to "divorce" the movement from your legs by keeping your pelvis as still as possible.

Riding fixed downhill at high cadence sure is a great way of cultivating the high-speed technique. Oddly, if you can break through that 120rpm mark, to 125 or 130 or higher, the harmonic issue seems to abate rapidly. It's then just a matter of keeping the legs moving without running out of cardiovascular effort.

Optimum cadence varies -- I have ridden long distances with a cadence in the 90s. I probably ride equally long distances these days at 75-80, and it's likely because by fitness is down, and my weight is up. On a recent reasonably flat 300km randonnee, I found my cadence actually increased by 5 to 10 rpm as the event progressed. I find I am more tired after a long ride at lower rpm than when I use higher ones.

If you want some fun, try riding up a hill in a low gear at a moderate cadence, then standing without shifting to a higher gear. See how long you can last at the same bike speed.

A good cadence (80 to 100) is considered to be good for climbing hills, particularly for riders who are (a) new to cycling (b) have dicky knees and/or (c) have heavier loads. Mashing is not a good thing in those cases, and anyone who poo-poos the idea of a triple chainring when there are decent hills around should be ignored, indeed vilified.

I tried a spinning class some years ago and the leader loved this. It was not fun.

When I get out of the saddle at high tempo it's like rocket fuel to my HR.

Compact doubles can replicate gearing of triples in many cases without the several duplications of gear inches. They provide a more efficient chainline. That said if you are pulling a weighty load they are nice for a super low gear. If you are of moderate fitness and not obese I think a compact double is wonderful. Only a fool would ignore the advantages of either - dependent on circumstance.

Duplication of gear ratios is one of the advantages of a triple, not a detriment.

Actually, if ahsposo had said a distinct disadvantage of triples is the need for a new front derailleur and maybe a new left shifter, I would have to agree with that. But triples can go down to a 22T granny with an MTB chainset, which gives a far wider range and much lower set of gears than a compact could.

And my post to which he refers did say "decent hills"... highway overpasses and the odd 7% grade don't qualify. Whereas where I live, I have hills 360 degree around with quite a few 10% grades. And my home state in Australia, Tasmania, is just plain hilly.

To all the posters, I really appreciate the ideas and feedback. I'm excited about some cadence exercises and look forward to starting a weekly regiment tomorrow! I'm also going to make it a point to stay on the small ring for anything below 25. It will be tough because I've been a big ring rider since I started last year.

[QUOTE=bobthib;10786352]To all the posters, I really appreciate the ideas and feedback. I'm excited about some cadence exercises and look forward to starting a weekly regiment tomorrow! I'm also going to make it a point to stay on the small ring for anything below 25. It will be tough because I've been a big ring rider since I started last year.[/QUOTE]

I like this statment a lot better than..." At my age I'm at the end of the age/performance curve, and I suspect that curve has a rather sharp downward curve to it as the years progress. I just want to try to get as good as I can."

A couple of other points...try one leg pedaling drills. I spin each leg at 70 rpm for one minute and do my weak leg an extra minute. This gives me the muscle memory of perfect pedal stroke and uses hip flexors, hamstrings, glutes and quads.

I started working on cadence 2 1/2 years ago and in the last few months, I have been able to do the cadence ladder.

All the coaches I know in our area coach high cadence. It seems we cannot spin fast enough to please them. I pay no attention to UCI pro riders or Lance or quite frankly what is published on internet websites or what has been determined in laboratories. The ability to spin high cadence and understand when it is an advantage goes to OP's goal of being the best he can be.

I am coached to understand what it means to load up your legs with slow cadence and high power and the effect on endurance and fatigue. Sometimes it is an advantage.

The ability to spin at will and sustain high cadence is hard to do but IMO is a significant advantage in competition and performance events. One can always choose to spin slower but one must train and practice to spin faster.

In my criterium race on Saturday my average cadence was 88 rpm and my max 120. That is a mixture of out of the saddle large accelerations at lower cadence, high cadence recovery, high cadence sprinting and low cadence seated accelerations. I used them all and I needed them all.

A. Jet: This is on a fixed gear or spinner, right?

No, road bike on a trainer. The really high spinning was in the bike's easiest gear, 39 x 23.

We also do a lactate tempo ladder using the 53 x 23 or higher for lower level groups who have the 25 or 26 gear. In that drill everyone starts out at 100 rpm's as the low and 120 rpm's as the high. The interval begins for 55 seconds at 100 rpm, then 5 seconds at 120 rpm's, then 55 seconds at 100 rpm's then 10 seconds @ 120 rpm's, each minute has 5 less seconds at 100 rpm's and 5 additional seconds at 120 rpm's. Eventually we get to 5 seconds at 100 rpm's then 55 seconds at 120 rpm's then the cruel instructor will say "0- 60 just keep on going" That drill really hurts! One thing to point out is the drill was progressive and at the start of the program we only worked up to 45 seconds at 120 rpm's and added additional time every other week.

In the interest of full disclosure, I did do intervals today, but not the cadence intervals. :^( On the Saturday club ride I made it a point to keep in the small ring (34) except for above 25. That pushed my average cadence up from 80 to 88 for the 42 mi.

Today I rode on the small ring for the entire 24 mile ride, and then I did heart rate intervals and rode home, again staying on the small ring. Again my cadence was about 90, and I was surprised how much less tiring the HR intervals were. They still weren't "fun" but I didn't get as winded and recovered more quickly.

I may try the cadence pyramids or intervals on Thursday if no one joins me. Can't ride tomorrow as I'll be with my grandson all day :^).

I think that we can spin at the higher rates if we train properly. When I run my single speed (39-12), I cruise @ 95 -110, top out at 154 and die at 165. But if you want to see what a younger faster rider can do flip over to <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8aEVDDRPbo&NR=1&feature=fvwp> . 321 RPM !! WOW!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8aEVDDRPbo&feature=fvw
fify!

Also see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVbwngNoHm0&NR=1

Spinning is wonderful.

One time in my youth, I had a job carrying stuff around a large aerospace factory. I was fast.

In the building next door, there was a fellow with a similar job. We were both the fastest walkers in our respective buildings. One time we met at the start of the main long hallway of my building. The race was on to the other end of the building. He was six inches taller than me and used his stride to pull away.

That's when I pulled out my secret weapon. I used my spinning skills from bicycling and told myself that at one moment, I would double my pace, dropping a gear as it were, and I did. Suddenly, I went zipping out ahead of him. He was astonished, and the question of who was fastest was settled.

The Brits rule the track and this video is about the standing start and team sprint which I think is 1000 meters with the last rider doing the whole race. Chris Hoy anchors this team.

I really want one of those helmets. However, they are not certified for use in the USA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ki2re...os=FMA8pwlYm1g