Assertiveness Training
 

The LBS ordered a Jamis Coda at my request. I know I'm not necessarily obligated to buy it, but wonder how I should approach the potential purchase. I love the bike from afar, but what if it doesn't fit/work for me?


How should a bike fitting proceed? I suspect they should have done more at the outset...but maybe they can "dial it in."

In terms of negotiating the sale, what should I reasonably expect them to throw in if I pay "Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price"?

If they ordered it at your request, I translate that to mean you ordered it. Assuming there was an understanding on price before proceeding, If I were the shop operator and you pulled a stunt like that on me, I'd promptly tell you to get stuffed.

Really? They are a Jamis distributor but they didn't stock this bike. They volunteered to order it, and I said okay. Please...I don't think I'm obligated to part with $875 if it doesn't fit my body or meet my needs without the opportunity to test ride it first. Stuff yourself.

I don't quite feel so strongly. If they did not verify the size, if you did not put down a deposit and agree on the price then as far as I am concerned you are not obligated. Even if all those things occurred and they got the bike in but you hated the ride then I would say all you could be held responsible for was the deposit, and a good bike shop would find a way to make that up.

Retail is tough, and if they treat you right you should give them your business, if not this bike, then work with them to find the right one. No retailer should tell a reasonable customer to "get stuffed".

Thank you for your reply, cyclinfool. I didn't put down a deposit. I examined my riding habits and did some research; and asked them about this particular bike. They did a cursory measurement with a FitStick and ordered it with my approval. I hope it works out perfectly, but it might not. I'm not adverse to working with them to find the right bike, but don't want to be forced into a quick, expensive decision.

BTW...This sort of unnecessary disrespect is why I don't often post here. I was just asking for advice.

To me there is a big difference between a shop ordering in a bike for you to test ride vs. a real "purchase" of a bike. Since you worded your original post to say, "The shop ordered the bike at my request" and "I know I'm not necessarily obligated to buy it," I am assuming they are bringing it in for your approval.

If the dealer is a Jamis dealer, and they're ordering in a pretty common bike (like the Coda) early in the riding season (like now), I would not think you would be under *any* obligation to buy the bike -- unless the dealer said, "I expect you to buy this when it comes in." In my mind, what you *owe* the dealer is an investment in your time to come back and test ride the bike, give it an honest evaluation, and buy it *if it's the right bike for you.* I think it's poor form if you were to then reject the bike and order it for another dealer for $25 less, but I don't think that's what you intend to do. While I understand it might make you a little uncomfortable not to go through with the purchase, if you don't like it, or it doesn't fit, walk away, or see if they will order the right size that does fit.

In other cases -- such as a rare or expensive bike, or something that is truly a very special order -- I would expect the dealer to "sell" you the bike out of the manufacturer's stock, and perhaps to even collect part or all of the money up front. In that case, the dealer ought to make it clear that you *are* buying the bike, and also make it clear whether you have any flexibility to return or exchange the bike if it doesn't fit. However, from the way you worded your post, it doesn't sound as if that is the deal.

You asked for advice. My advice would be to be polite, give the bike a serious look over, and be honest with the dealer about what you think. Of course the dealer would love for you to buy the bike but if you say, "it's just not for me, can you help me with something else," the dealer ought to respect that.

I think any shop that orders a bike at a customers request would order the correct size for that customer.

You said no money was exchanged so I would say it is not a sale until you do so. Take a look and test ride when it comes in, if it fits and you like it buy it. If not work with the shop and get the bike you like and fits.
Seems to me the shop is a good one if they are getting in a bike just to see if you like it. It could be though that they know it will sell anyway.
Good luck , hope you like your new Jamis!

You aren't buying a custom-made bicycle. Generally, these sorts of bikes come in a range of sizes that, simplisticly (and often practically) are measured in XS, S, M, L and XL. They correspond to measurement of the seat tube, as you likely know. In ordering the bike, the staff probably had a pretty good clue as to what sized frame to order with what you regard as cursory measurements.

The task for you and the bike shop comes after delivery of the bike, and that is to work together and negotiate on the fine-tuning of the bike to fit you*. Things like longer or shorter stem, height of the steerer tube, position of the seat fore and aft and height-wise, even changing the seat, and so on will make the bike comfortable, if the basic frame is right.

It sounds as though the bike shop is trying to work with you. Perhaps you should meet them next with the same sort of approach rather than gee-ing yourself up with "assertiveness training".

* There are some caveats. For all we know, you may have some extraordinary body dimensions, such as very short torso and very long inseam, or short arms in comparison to your height... and that can make fit on a production bike somewhat more difficult (frustrating even). I also am assuming that you are female (yes, there are some here who post with female names but are men) and that the bike is the Femme version which means the geometry is more suited to a "standard" woman's measurements.

There are two components to bicycle fit, there is the course tuning, usually the basic sizing, which in the case of that particular model is in inches. This is determined before they bring the bike in. There is also fine tuning which is done later, to get it dialed in properly. If it doesn't fit or work for you, then they can probably sell it during this season.

As to what they can throw in, it really depends on how much there is between the MSRP and the wholesale price, the margin on bicycles isn't all that high. Bike shops typically make their real money on accessories, parts and service.

Thanks so much for your informative replies. I fully intend to purchase this bike if it fits, and I will be tickled if it does! I just didn't know what options should be reasonably be explored during the fine-tuning process. I'm easy to get along with and tend to trust the judgment of professionals but want this to be a thorough and accurate fit. Thanks again.

I hope you will continue to post more often and let us know how the bike works out. I think you will find that the disrespectful posts are a small minority here.

Hopefully the bike will be everything you hoped and the shop will help you get it dialed in to fit just right. If not, I wouldn't feel obligated to buy a bike I didn't like. It would seem fair to give them a chance to work something out to your satisfaction.

If there has been no discussion of price or included extras, I see no reason not to try to negotiate a deal. It is pretty common (but not universal) to get bottle cages and water bottles or something of a similar value thrown in to sweeten a deal, especially if paying full MSRP. Many dealers throw in free adjustments and minor service for a year or more. It is also common to be offered a discount on accessories at the time of purchase. It is not out of line to politely ask for some kind of deal-sweetener, but you shouldn't act as though you are entitled.

The shop would seem to be going to extraordinary measures to make you happy by special ordering a bike at your request and not taking a deposit. If you don't like the bike don't buy it, definitely. They are taking a risk to make a customer happy. Unless they are able to group this with a larger order to earn free freight, they are likely spending $30 or so to get the bike. That's hard cost that they will not recoup if you don't buy. That doesn't mean you owe them anything but it seems like extraordinary service at this point.

True dat. Hadn't thought about the freight charge. This shop does seem to be willing to go the extra mile to ensure customer satisfaction, and I hope to establish a solid relationship with them. I go in for the fitting tomorrow morning, and I'm so excited! :)

I wouldn't take it personally. You asked for opinions. If you don't get a few that you'd rather not hear, it means that you haven't gotten the whole story yet.

The Jamis Coda Femme is a model I'm trying to get my wife to look at, so I look forward to your experience on the bike. The MSRP is only $550 for this performance hybrid (with their top model in the line only at $1100), so I wouldn't expect your LBS would be too willing to throw in too much in the way of additional accessories for the bike. Might be able to negociate a discount on clipless pedals, rack or fenders if you are interested in adding those.

Lauraspark

As a Jamis distributor, they should order a bike that you are seriously interested in, in a size that is appropriate to you. On your part, I would think that you would be obligated (morally, not legally) to purchase the bike if they are able to adjust it to meet your needs. Bike shops tend to have pretty thin margins on bikes themselves, so don't expect a big discount on the bike itself, but most LBSs will give you a good discount on other accessories that you pick up along with the bike. Also, it is common for the LBS to throw in some maintenence on the bike for some period after purchase.

Generally fit consists of getting 5 things right:

1) The saddle width and shape, too wide a saddle can cause chaffing, too narrow can cause pain and numbness down there, this almost always means a different saddle from the one supplied. One thing to remember, the saddle width is determined from the sit bones, some riders can have width rear ends, but need a narrow saddle, and some people with a small rear end can need a wider saddle. Women tend to need wider saddles then men do.

2) The height of the saddle, a saddle that is too high or too low can cause injury, there is probably a general range of +/- ¾ cm or so that is close enough to not cause injury. A proper fitting will get this within a mm or so.

3) The position of the saddle front to back, depending on your build this can require changing the seat post for a different model that has a different setback. This is common for riders who are built to different proportions then the bicycle manufacturer uses for that model. For example men tend to have longer torso's and shorter legs, women tend to be the opposite, but I have also see the opposite.

4) The height of the bars, some riders need the bars higher then others, hybrid (which would I think include the Coda) tend to have them fairly high.

5) The position of the bars, front to back, again this can require a different stem, from the one supplied.

If the shop is doing the fitting, if they need to exchange components they usually will take the existing one as trade, unfortunately not always an even trade. Factory saddles though, tend to be lower end, so needing a different one nearly always involves a more expensive model. A good well fitting saddle though is a good investment that can be moved to a different bike.

Different saddles can be taller or shorter, so saddle model should be picked first, then saddle height, because the seat tube is on an angle, the position can be affected by the height. Saddle height and position can affect bar height, saddle position and bar height can affect bar position. For some adjustments a mm can make a difference.

If you are paying Full retail- then negotiate a deal. If you pay full retail and don't get a deal on Accessories- then find another Shop.

May sound a bit money grabbing but Shops need to sell bikes- If they can't sweeten the deal then they don't need your busines.

But A top grade helmet and computer might not be on the cards.

Wow, Wogster! I think I'm going to print out your last post and take it with me as a checklist tomorrow! If we can fine tune each aspect as you describe, I'll feel like I'm riding on a cloud!

Y'all have all been really helpful. I'll let you know how it goes (and hopefully will be able to post a pic or two of my NEW BIKE!) :D

I was initially interested in the Coda Femme but decided to go with the Coda because the components seemed better (this perception was, of course, enthusiastically confirmed by the salesman...). I don't know why Jamis doesn't offer the upgrades in a women's specific model. I was a bit worried about the fit issue, but he said they could definitely make it work. Like I said...I'm a trusting soul. Plus my previous poor-fitting Giant was a WSD, so I'm not sure the geometry works for me anyway!

I hope your experience with the bike is entirely good.

(The title of 'assertiveness training' maybe gives a flavour of 'hard bargaining' - I've always found bike shops to be entirely reasonable and happy with straightforward communication along the lines of "I'm very interested in this machine, but I've never seen one, and I'll need to be certain that it fits me before I buy it"...."Fine, let's get one in so you can see it and we can get it to suit you - and if it doesn't, it's a good bike and someone else will want it while we find the one that's best for you")

Sounds to me like that's the spirit of the present dealing??

I hope it turns out to be perfect for you.

Thank you! I chose the thread title because I'm not assertive by nature. I compromise well (too well at times) but suck at negotiation. I guess that concern should be posted over at neurosisconfession.com...:)

Your error has now been revealed. You have chosen the bike based on componentry, rather than fit (which I suppose is a little better than basing a choice on colour). Componentry often can be upgraded by a competent bike shop. Men's frames are always going to be different in toptube length and that is probably the most critical issue for you. Fit, assuming you are a "normally" dimensioned women, will now be somewhat more of a compromise that the bike shop really won't be able to fix.

I somehow have this niggling feeling that you won't be happy with the outcome. You might be when you leave the shop (and I now say "might" advisedly), but a couple of rides in when your back and shoulders and arms and hands are all sore might tell a different story because you are leaning too far forward or some other fit issue.

And the saddle? Don't expect the stock saddle on the delivered bike to be the right one. If you have been riding previously on one that suits you, for sure change it over (even if it might look a bit daggy on a new bike). But be prepared to experiment with saddles.

A bike for someone who wants to ride often (as opposed to the summer weekend occasional rider) is a significant investment in time and money, as much after the purchase as prior.

Good luck. Keep us posted. While you might not see yourself as assertive, you sure can bite when provoked, so I think we can expect as honest appraisal.

Got it!
 

My bike buying experience couldn't have been better and I couldn't be happier with the level of service I received at Two-Wheeler Dealer in Wilmington, NC. They worked patiently with me until the bike felt properly fitted, and gave me nice discounts on all accessories.

Nice bike! Glad to hear your buying experience went well. Stop back and keep us updated. We will even answer any questions you may have too.

I guess it goes without saying what you're asking us should have been cleared up with the dealer before it was ordered to avoid any misunderstandings? Is it too late to make sure they know how you feel?

hmmm ... what if you don't like it and here's another you think you might like. will they offer to order that one too? interesting question that I never heard before

So far, it's all good. I can take it back in anytime for needed adjustments that reveal themselves as I ride, plus free service for a year, including tuneups. The getting-to-know-you process has been fun so far!