Literature with Androgel identifies the abdomen as an application site FYI

I agree 100% The gall of the man - after 20 years of caring for you as a patient, he won't give you a hormone clinical tests say you don't need! What is he thinking? Hormones are as safe as cotton candy - Joe Weider and Arnold Schwarzenegger proved that years ago.

Who the heck does he think he is? Why does he get to decide that your health is more important than your ego? I got news for him - all those years of studying endocrinology don't mean squat. We got forums full of medical experts who are able to prescribe without even having to read tests results or doing any physical exams.

Sorry but a doctor is not an order taker for very obvious reasons.

All drugs have side effects including hormone replacements.

For hormonal problems one should see an endocrinologist not one's family doctor.

Assuming you were engaging in a bit of sarcasm:

I don't want to get in to the doctor shopping discussion but I would point out the the bodybuilders of the 70s were elevating their testosterone levels FAR beyond the normal range. It's getting to the normal range that is my goal, not getting to 300 percent of normal. So far, so good.

What happens if you miss a dose? I was running late this morning and didn't use mine

My guess is like a lot of meds. Missing a dose every once in awhile does not usually have disastrous effects. Just don't miss too often. It's not like it is blood pressure medicine or transplant organ anti-rejection medicine where missing a dose could have devastating results.

(disclaimer: I am not a physician, so I do not speak with educated authority here. Just out of my personal experience. Consult your prescribing physician with any concerns you may have.)

There may a short-term reduction in your frequency of having naughty thoughts. Aside from that, my best guess is that nothing much happens. I would not worry about it. :)

It's not about ego. I could give a crap about time, distance, power, or keeping up with the Joneses. It's about getting my life back. This stuff is not pure science and not just about the numbers, and any doctor current in his practice should understand this. It's an easy statement to say that "your number falls within the norm, That'll be $240, please." Tougher to say "let's dig deeper for answers" when there are none easily found. Hopefully you'll never have to walk a mile in my shoes in order to find that out.

Wow... some of you poor sods (not you, volosong) really need to get informed. Ok... I've got a lot to add to this thread. Been on the juice at least three years. Suspected I was low in my 20's/30's but didn't actually test levels till I was 45. Tested at 250 on a scale that went from 250 to 1050. Doctor said I was fine. Not much I could have done about it anyway, not much money, no health insurance. Long story short at 50 y.o. found a ND (naturpath) that prescribed shots, did shots for about a year, then found another naturpath that said "you're crazy to do that. It has been cream ever since. Androgel and Testim are powerful and will raise your T levels but are big pharma products. Expensive and made with artificial hormones that can be patented. Bio-identical creams are less powerful but are natural and work very well when you give them time, and time is something you have plenty of when you are dosing daily for weeks, months, and years. You don't need the power and potency of the commercial stuff.

Important! After a year and a half on the juice I just wasn't feeling right. Doctor tested estrogen. I was 12 on a scale that went from 0.2 to 4. That was not a typo. Very few doctors administering 'T' ever test estrogen before or during testosterone therapy. This is a bad idea because when a man has been low 't' for years or decades his body reacts to the new higher levels of testosterone by turning it into estrogen. It is the estrogen in a mans body that causes prostate cancer and other problems. Proper estrogen levels for a man should be about 1. Not many men on 'T' are taking Arimidex or Clomid but many, many more should be. At the very least, if you are taking 'T' get your estrogen levels checked. I take 1/4 of an Arimidex tablet every other day or so. Pharmacist says that men can take up to 1 tablet/wk. I am just slightly over that and trying to bring it down. Some men may not need an anti-aromatising agent (Arimidex, Clomid) but I'll bet money that at least one more of you guys that are supplementing 'T' is in the process of elevating your estrogen into unhealthy amounts. If you still feel crappy even though you have the 'T' level of a young Clydesdale go and have your estrogen checked. Check it anyway regardless of how you feel.

Every direction for topical hormone replacements say to rotate the sites. Inside elbow, inside fore-arm, inside thigh and backs of knees are all good sites where the skin is thinner than normal. Neck is also good and so is the area where the raisins hang. It would appear I've been on the stuff longer than anyone who has posted and I am on a fairly generous dose. There has been zero shrinkage. I repeat, zero shrinkage. Neither has there been any enlargement... ... and if you get from that that I wasn't talking about raisins that time, you would be correct.

At the risk of sounding like an info-mercial I will say that the 'T' has saved my life. Being chronically low in 'T' is NOT a natural situation and allowing it to continue is just as bad, or worse, than taking excessive amounts of male hormone to acquire unnatural amounts of muscle and strength.

H

PS Your old lady will not turn into Sasquatch if she brushes against your thigh that you have liberally basted with an over application of sauce! Not even the gels are that potent but the creams are way less potent than the gels if you are nervous. Wash your hands after applying. Better yet apply some of your stash to your favorite spot to apply stuff on her and watch the fur fly. And no, I don't mean facial hair. Really, it's not harmful, you can't sue me if I'm wrong, but I'm not wrong. Bottom line, if you are in this forum, you likely could use a lot more 'T' and your spouse could certainly use a little. The 'accidental' contact is a win-win.

I'll share too....I will be 49 this month. Last fall, I was turned down for a life insurance upgrade. Seems that my cholesterol of 311 and triglycerides of over 400 were some cause for alarm:( February 1st, I had a physical with my physician and started a medically supervised program of diet and exercise. Last check three weeks ago, my cholesterol was 172 and my triglycerides were 95:thumb: I have lost 30 lbs and am down from a 38" waist to a 34". I am about 10 lbs from where I got married 25 years ago. I feel great. About 4 weeks ago, he tested for my T levels. I was 'low-normal', around 250-300, I think. He suggested some IM injections every 10 days followed by some 'pellet implants' that will absorb over 6-9 months. This stuff rocks!!! My weight has stabilized, but my lean mass is increasing and my body fat% is decreasing. I have more energy, focus, and a significant performance improvement (just ask my wife;)) He checked my PSA and that is very low. He will continue to check that and monitor my levels.
Also, my wife is going to start the therapy as well. It seems that many women suffer from low levels as well.
I am a believer and thrilled.

Sorry, but I have to strongly dispute this. My urologist, endocrinologist, radiation oncologist and family practice doctors have all told me that under no circumstances should testosterone cream or medication be applied to scrotal area. Read the medication pamphlet and it too will say this. If your testosterone is low, but your 'nads are still producing, applying testosterone meds to this area will cause premature shutdown, and could be a precursor to other nasty things. My low T was due to my remaining testicle not being able to keep up with my body's demand for hormone. It shutdown production and is now pretty much an ornament. Always see a qualified professional before venturing down the path of hormone replacement. If you don't want to use a synthetic form, by all means try a natural supplement, but always consult the proper medical professionals first.

Later,

I was hoping someone would point this out.

Testosterone is NASTY stuff. I wouldn't take it unless I absolutely had to - and the prostate issue is just one reason of many.

Zorba, what else is nasty about it?

Sorry, but I have to strongly dispute your dispute. Where do you think you are supposed to apply testosterone patches? Hint: rhymes with nutsack. That's because the skin there is very thin and it is richly supplied with blood vessels. It isn't because its where the boys are or aren't! You don't apply Androgel to your scrotal area because the alcohol carrier in it will burn like Hades. Testosterone cream is suspended in a Safflower Oil carrier and is ok to apply to the scrotum. If you take enough "T" to completely depress the function of your own testicle(s) it/they may atrophy regardless of where the testosterone is applied. I also wonder what makes you think I am not under the care of a qualified physician. Testosterone is a very controlled substance and I for one do not know how to obtain it without a doctor's supervision. That said, my wife and I are avid researchers and probably know as much or more than our doctor in the area of hormone replacement. We need her because she has the credentials and licensing that allow her to legally prescribe the junk that we want. She listens to us and offers her advice and/or guidance when necessary. It is very much a partnership. Never just accept the directives of a physician without question. You are allowed your second opinion and your independent research.

H

Prostate cancer tumors may thrive on testosterone but they were/are caused by too much estrogen. LOW testosterone and the resultant estrogen dominance will get the prostate tumor going. At that point the only thing to do is shut the supply of testosterone down to zero. Breast cancer is also caused by too much estrogen and in women the answer is usually to shut the woman's supply of estrogen down to zero. I wonder how much research has been done in reducing men's estrogen levels to zero in the face of a prostate cancer diagnosis. 87% of men with low testosterone refuse to get treated for it. This destroys marriages, ruins careers, shortens lives. I can't think of anything else that is as easily treatable that has such a resistant mindset among the sufferers. Its really sad.

H

Leisesturm-Can you cite the studies that show estrogen is the cause of prostate cancer. I'm not trying to be combative-just interested. I did a quick google and the studies I saw just concluded that their may be a link and it is worth studying. They were looking at estrogen contamination in water supplies etc. None cited estrogen as the definitive cause of prostate cancer.

l never meant to imply that you are not under the care of a physician. Testosterone is very easy to get WITHOUT a doctor. The patches that were first prescribed to me were the size of 3 x 5 cards and would not have fit anywhere near my scrotal area. Many people take what is on the internet as gospel, all I was saying is that you should always consult qualified individuals (read doctors) and follow their instructions and those of the particular medication, not what other people say on the web. My physicians say to absolutely do not put my medication in the scrotal area, the medication instructions also say this. Again, no maliciousness was intended and if you or anyone takes it as such...sorry.

Later,

Yes, you are in violation and there is no TUE for testosterone. It is strictly prohibited in and out of competition. That is not the case with prednisone which is allowed out of competition with a TUE. You fill out a TUE, have your doctor sign it and submit along with supporting backup for an exemption. Upon review and approval, you are good to go. Here is the website to check all drugs. http://www.globaldro.com/

There was a master who refused a drug test and was suspended (last year?). The officials were tipped off by other racers. He was bragging that he was taking drugs. And USA cycling can show up at your house at any time and demand that you submit a urine sample for testing. They have a mobile unit and do random testing as well as follow up testing from race results.

If you think about it, what is an acceptable level of testosterone that requires replacement therapy as a medical necessity. Let's face it. A 39 year old pro bike racer may have lower testosterone than a 23 year old and benefit from improved recovery from a testosterone patch.

Testosterone's effectiveness is a function of weight. Here is a link. http://www.weightwatchers.com/util/a...d=39281&sc=803 So proper diet, aerobic exercise along with strength training and weight control can go a long way to improving testosterone production and utilization.

As with most health issues, IMHO, public discussion is not a great idea and these matters are better kept private and discussed with medical professionals.

I think the regulators have this one correct. I am not passing judgment of those that choose to take replacement. They cannot compete in USA cycling or UCI events.

Out of competition? How do they possibly enforce this? My testosterone tests squarely in the normal range, what would an official use as evidence of doping to disqualify me from competing in a race?


[QUOTE=Hermes;14181253]
Slippery slope argument. Quality of life is a medical necessity for many. I am not sure of the point you are trying to make.


No argument there but, again, what is your point? What if despite all the diet and exercise your testosterone remains at the level of a 9 year old boy? Just deal with it?


Hmmm. This flies in the face of the spirit of intellectual sharing that is the internet. The privacy is what leads to the abuse. So you keep your doping private and so do I and its all good. I disagree. I have firsthand knowledge of what can happen when one supplements 'T' for long periods of time without checking on what that is doing to their estrogen levels. I am going to share that knowlege in the hope that it will keep some other guy somewhere from making the same mistake. This thread seemed like the perfect place. I have never seen a discussion of this topic online before actually.


No doubt they do. However, I doubt that it makes any difference. Garden variety 'T' is a low bar for drug testing. The stuff that cannot be tested for is the stuff that really makes or breaks a bike race. Just saying. I am not nor have ever been remotely interested in competition. However, if I was, and had testosterone levels low enough to be of concern enough to already conservative American doctors to warrant HRT... well I would seriously wonder about the wisdom of embarking on a racing carreer... ...

H

And none will. Neither will/can I. But I can extrapolate from empirical data... ... I mean... look around... who gets prostate cancer? In the main its older men... more than that, its men whose testosterone was never that high to begin with. Even if you suppose that the tumor may have started at an earlier time in a mans life when testosterone was higher it fails to explain why many obviously high testosterone men never get the disease. Supplementing testosterone to acheive and/or maintain 'normal' levels of 'T' at worst will expose a man to 'normal' amounts of risk of contracting prostate cancer. Word on the street is that the suspected link between xenoestrogens (the estrogenic compounds in water supplies, plastic, fertilizer and pesticides, etc.) is more than just nebulous supposing. But no one will say it. That would of necessity admit that prostate cancer is in fact, man made.

H

anyone know if products advertised in Backpacker Magazine are any good? Such as MdriveBP

http://www.mdrivebp.com/

or this one:

http://www.natrolex.com/

"T" is probably cheaper than that Mdrive stuff. A LOT cheaper. And it will work. Just saying.

H

I get my by monthly shot tomorrow AM and then get blood drawn for testing. I don't know if its my imagination or what but my energy is for sure off. I was supposed to ride yesterday and found excuses and did the same today. I just didn't "have it", whatever "it" is.

I think that I would be unhappy with a dose once a month. Can't imagine how it would really give an even dosage. I'm very happy with the gel myself and have NO problem with stickyness or any of that stuff. While I am very happy with what I'm getting from this in terms of strength and body composition, and more on that later, I'm pretty sure it doesn't give you complete immunity from getting really tired sometimes. :)

I highly recommend the gels if you have that option!

Sorry to dredge this back up. My numbers just came back and I am still very low. Doc told me to increase to 3 (from 2) pumps a day of the 6%. When I go my first script it was $80 with my insurance :eek:. How much do you pay, if you pay less then how?

I pay about $30/month with insurance. You may see your cost go down as you use up your copayment/deductible.

Update on a thread I started one year ago:

I've been on prescription testosterone for a year now and just had my annual checkup, though I have had testosterone checks a couple times during the year. I've been using the gel and applying it mainly in the AM with a touchup dose at night. All indications are that we have the dosage right... max level I have tested three hours after the morning dose is 746. (Normal= 300 to 1000)

I'm very, very happy with my results.

-Bodyweight is down between 10-14 pounds (no really special dieting or increase in mileage ridden)
-Lean body mass up
-Between 20 and 40 watts more power on the trainer than last season
-Recovery from exercise is better... you can still get tired however
-PSA is unchanged and Doc describes my prostate as "perfect"

Unless you are philosophically opposed to this sort of thing, hate big pharma, or your rides are governed by WADA or whoever, I highly recommend getting tested.

i'm glad my sex hormones are in remission..

Babes dig me since I started Androgel.

Glad to hear it is working for you, billydonn. I am still boderline low. I will have another followup blood test soon. Not sure if my doctor will order drugs or not at this point.