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paceline pedaling

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Old 08-07-12 | 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob Ross
...unless you don't like getting yelled at, in which case you should avoid coasting in the paceline.
It's maintaining an even pace and your position that counts, not whether you are turning the pedals or not. If you roll better than others - it happens - or if there's a marginal change of pace ahead of you, there's absolutely no reason why you shouldn't coast to make tiny adjustments. It's likely to be better for the guy behind than using your brakes, which will typically cause a more sudden deceleration. Any ignorant person who yelled at me under those circumstances would get an uncompromising response.
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Old 08-07-12 | 01:36 PM
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I have found to prevent "yo-yo" it is best to be in an easier gear and to keep pedaling at a higher cadence. I would soft pedal if necessary. As AzTallRider says, shift to a power gear when you are taking the pull.
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Old 08-07-12 | 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
Why is the alternative of braking or overlapping wheels preferable?
Ideally, you manage to keep pedaling, and maintain your distance, without resorting to brakes or other methods. But of course it all happens, and is no big deal when it does. The key thing is being steady and maintaining a consistent (close) distance. Do that and you're golden. But if you pay attention to others, you may find that really strong/fast/smooth riders tend to never stop pedaling - they soft pedal rather than coast. One benefit is that it doesn't cause as many ripples. If you start coasting, the rider behind you probably will also, and so on and so on. It creates an unnecessary yo-yo. It's a less extreme version of yelling "slowing". Someone yells "slowing", and people slow whether they need to or not. Instant accordian. When someone yells something like that I want to yell back "STFU and just pay attention." But I don't. The only sounds I tend to make are heavy breaths, and chats with whomever is next to me. Oh, and if in front, I'll call an all-clear at an intersection.
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Old 08-08-12 | 11:15 AM
  #29  
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I agree with not coasting. Riding in a pace line is like driving a race car: the most important thing is to be SMOOTH. Suddenly coasting is not smooth. Keep the legs moving, even if they're not dong anything, or if you must coast, reduce leg speed gradually. Suddenly stopping the legs often sends the wrong message to riders behind.

If you've ever ridden in a pace line on the track, you quickly learn that it's the smoothness of the rider in front of you that dictates how close you can get to his wheel. The smoother the rider immediately ahead, the closer to his wheel you can ride. When I get into an unfamiliar pace line, I'm sometimes an entire wheel-length behind the rider ahead just because I can tell he's not smooth. He suddenly starts coasting, thinking it's a cool way to control his speed without braking. If I can, I'll work my way around him.

Someone also mentioned not riding "in line." Where you sit in a pace line is heavily dependent on where the wind is coming from. The wind rarely comes from directly in front; usually it's from the side. I always move slowly from one side to the other (never overlapping the wheel ahead) until I find the zone with least wind resistance. This might stagger the line a bit, so I sometimes need to be on the windward side just to keep the pace line closer to the road edge, but in most cases the riders ahead will have no idea what the wind is doing, so I'm never out very far. In races, where we can use the entire lane, a small but savvy group will be side by side in an echelon when there's a hard crosswind blowing. But that's only for really experienced riders who know what they're doing.

If you are directly behind the rider in front, don't be afraid to move your upper body to peer past the rider(s) ahead. I often see road hazards coming up well before they're pointed out by riders up ahead. Get used to looking around, even when you're in the pace line. In other words, stop focusing on how close you are to the wheel ahead. In a team pursuit, it's really important. In a casual pace line, who cares? You're still getting wind protection even an entire wheel-length back.

And on descents, when the speed picks up, drift back and open up an entire bike-length or two. This is not only safer at the faster speeds of a descent, but if you have somebody ahead of you who can't corner, it puts you in the best position to slingshot past him as he's braking for the next turn. Conversely, if he's a really good descender, it gives you time to copy his setups for each corner (or to avoid his bike when he misjudges and bites it!).

Luis

Last edited by lhbernhardt; 08-08-12 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 08-08-12 | 12:46 PM
  #30  
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It's interesting that we have opinions on both sides of the fence regarding gear choice and cadence as a means to micro-controlling position and velocity when in a drafting situation (i.e., lower gear/higher cadence vs higher gear/lower cadence). I suppose to a great extent it's personal preference. Having a little more pedal resistance works for me, plus it doesn't tax my cardiovascular system as much as excessively fast (for me) spinning would do while trying to maintain a given speed.
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Old 08-08-12 | 03:02 PM
  #31  
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It's a bigger problem for heavy riders if you outweigh the rest of the pace line your momentum carries you up every time they slow.
The best solution is to get on the front and increase the speed until the skinney riders drop.
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Old 08-08-12 | 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lhbernhardt
I agree with not coasting. Riding in a pace line is like driving a race car: the most important thing is to be SMOOTH. Suddenly coasting is not smooth. Keep the legs moving, even if they're not dong anything, or if you must coast, reduce leg speed gradually. Suddenly stopping the legs often sends the wrong message to riders behind.

If you've ever ridden in a pace line on the track, you quickly learn that it's the smoothness of the rider in front of you that dictates how close you can get to his wheel. The smoother the rider immediately ahead, the closer to his wheel you can ride. When I get into an unfamiliar pace line, I'm sometimes an entire wheel-length behind the rider ahead just because I can tell he's not smooth. He suddenly starts coasting, thinking it's a cool way to control his speed without braking. If I can, I'll work my way around him.
We clearly have different understandings of the term "coasting". If you are not exerting any pressure on the rear sprockets through the drivetrain, you are coasting in my book, whether or not your legs are going round. "Soft pedalling", where I come from, describes only that very precise point at which your rotation of the pedals is at exactly the pace which matches your current speed so you can feel the tension in the chain but make little or no contribution to your speed. I'll very rarely stop turning the pedals unless we're on a significant downhill. But I'll sometimes be coasting, even though the pedals are going round.
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Old 08-09-12 | 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
We clearly have different understandings of the term "coasting". If you are not exerting any pressure on the rear sprockets through the drivetrain, you are coasting in my book, whether or not your legs are going round. "Soft pedalling", where I come from, describes only that very precise point at which your rotation of the pedals is at exactly the pace which matches your current speed so you can feel the tension in the chain but make little or no contribution to your speed. I'll very rarely stop turning the pedals unless we're on a significant downhill. But I'll sometimes be coasting, even though the pedals are going round.
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Old 08-09-12 | 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by mrardo
The best solution is to get on the front and increase the speed until the skinney riders drop.
While effective, I find this technique results in excessive whinging back at the cafe.

I prefer finding just one or two other cooperative quadzillas, coast to the front on the descents, than push the pace on the flats just enough to arrive at the bottom of the next climb with the twigs, toothpicks and sparrows still attached, but,appropriately softened for the next climb. This can be very effectively utilized as a bit of a big guys can't climb equalizer. But, it requires a team of two or three.
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Old 08-09-12 | 01:32 AM
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Nice picture, Fred, but I don't think so. The debate was about whether it is preferable to coast momentarily than to use the brakes. That's different from a debate as to whether it is preferable to coast while pretending not to...
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Old 08-09-12 | 08:11 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by mrardo
It's a bigger problem for heavy riders if you outweigh the rest of the pace line your momentum carries you up every time they slow.
The best solution is to get on the front and increase the speed until the skinney riders drop.
:-) I hate it when I peel off and the new leader bumps the speed way up. I end up working harder to reattach then when I was taking my pull at the front.
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Old 08-09-12 | 10:11 AM
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Originally Posted by bigfred
I prefer finding just one or two other cooperative quadzillas, coast to the front on the descents, than push the pace on the flats just enough to arrive at the bottom of the next climb with the twigs, toothpicks and sparrows still attached, but,appropriately softened for the next climb. This can be very effectively utilized as a bit of a big guys can't climb equalizer. But, it requires a team of two or three.
If you're able to 'soften up' climbers who are just sitting in, you should be able to keep up with them on the hills. I think you'd be better off making them do the work on the flats leading up to a climb.
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Old 08-09-12 | 10:28 AM
  #38  
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I often shift to a lower cadence when drafting particularly if it's at all down hill (for me that's around 70-80 instead of 90+ when leading). The bike accelerates slower in response to a given pedal force the higher the gear, so IMO it's easier to main constant speed and minimize rubberbanding. Also, high cadence may be best for optimum power output, but at low power the effort needed just to maintain a high cadence can be a waste of energy.

Agree that if you're not putting any tension on the chain then you're coasting whether or not your legs are going around.
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Old 08-09-12 | 02:12 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83
If you're able to 'soften up' climbers who are just sitting in, you should be able to keep up with them on the hills. I think you'd be better off making them do the work on the flats leading up to a climb.
Left to their own devices or on the front, the climbers will toodle along on the flats at a comfortable pace for themselves. You can't "make" someone pull for your benefit, as demonstrated in one pro race after another. The trick is to elevate the pace just enough that they're having to work some, but, not a lot to stay "attached" to the group. Just fast enough that the word "attached" is more descriptive than "sitting in". In my bunch, everyone seems pretty comfortable with a 36kph paceline. But, increase that to anything over 38kph and the "climbers" start to have to work, even when attached to my wheel. If I could sit on the front at that pace indefinately, you are correct, I could probably out climb them. But, I can't. The tactic requires at least two, preferably three cooperative riders. So, that you too get adequate recovery time. And deliver the "climbers" to the base of your next hill with at least a little wear in their legs and with a slightly elevated heart rate. It's just a tactic that keeps the climbers from dictating the pace of an entire ride by wasting everyone else on the climbs and then expecting them to be greatful for getting a "recovery" on the flats, just to repeat the cycle again. Keep the pace a little higher on the flats, and the pace on the climbs naturally comes down a little, keeping the bigger guys in the mix more and leveling the playing field.

Ain't it entertaining? How even a bunch of "never were's" out on a "casual" Saturday ride can start to play with each other as though it were a grand tour?

Even at our slow pace, there's definately a bit of competition with regard to who reaches the top of any climb first and in what order the rest follow.
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Old 08-09-12 | 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by chasm54
Nice picture, Fred, but I don't think so. The debate was about whether it is preferable to coast momentarily than to use the brakes. That's different from a debate as to whether it is preferable to coast while pretending not to...
The photo wasn't aimed just at you. But, generally at the debate about defining at what point "soft pedaling" becomes "no effort spinning" become "coasting" becomes "lack of pedal movement".

In general I am a bit of an "outcome" based individual. Subsequently, I don't get too concerned about whether someone "feathers their brakes while still exerting effort against the pedals" or "soft pedals/coasts for a couple seconds". As long as the "outcome" is a gadual and smooth adjustment to their speed and position in the line.

I hear what others are saying about the messege that any change sends back through the group. But, to be honest, I pay just as much attention to the sound of the brakes on the bike ahead of me as I do their feet turning, as well as their shifting.

The idea that an amateur paceline is going to start to worry about some of these concerns as much as some of the respondents suggest really does start to move toward working together at a level that the pro's spend some considerable time training together to achieve.
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