Same here, we didn't check alignment on every frame, but on the few where there were shifting issues which could not be adjusted, alignment was nearly always the issue.

Then a new service manager was hired and he had us checking on every bike. Pretty much every bike needed some adjustment, but with most it was nearly inconsequential. We were, however, making substantial adjustments to more bikes than we had before.

DAG-2 here also ... even though I don't see the amount of frames you guys in shops do, I've put the tool to good use over the years on a few..

in my opinion, the citizen tokyo is a crappy bicycle.

•one of the worst bikes i've ever had the displeasure to ride.
•by far the worst bike i've ever owned.
•the only bike i've gotten rid of simply because the sight of it made me feel ill.

I guess Shimano and Joytech #1 , and #2 hub manufacturers are not reputable???

In all seriousness I believe the hub manufacturers are trying to minimize problems, and slightly over tightening creates less problems than anything else ( over the long term )

Thanks,
Yan

Are you suggesting that they're selling hubs intentionally adjusted to fail prematurely? Because that's what over tightening the bearings does.

Again you're mistaken. Bearings adjusted properly, as LBSs do as part of their new bike tune up, do not loosen. They may wear over years of use but that takes a hell of a lot longer than your misguided belief that over tightening and causing premature wear is better in the long run. That's just plain fact as any competent mechanic would attest to.

Really? I have hired more bike techs than I can count. None ever adjusted hubs as part of their new bike setup at previous shops.

Once again I believe the hub manufacturers are more knowledgeable than you and me about their business. I give experts credit for their expertise.

Thanks,
Yan

...this must be a joke?

Thanks, I'll be sure to pass on this info of your practices to anyone considering a DownTube so that they'll know what to expect.

Bass is there a reason you are bringing so much negative energy here? FYI hubs do not come from a factory built onto a wheel. They come packed in boxes in lots of 25 or 50 pieces. I currently have between 200-300 hubs ( not on wheels ) in boxes. Over the years I have found that most hubs are tight from the factory. Are you arguing this point with me?

Additionally I have hired bike techs that have worked at Performance, REI, Bike Line and many other bike shops.....FYI I have hired people that VERY VERY knowledgeable in the bike biz! None of them checked hubs during new bike build up at their previous places of employment. Please take a look on youtube and check some videos on new bike setup ( none reference hub adjustment ). Some examples are at


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaOyHjFRRn4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUcdto1h2zs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lw0Cd1frEM4

Now question for you Mr. Bass.... Do you check hub adjustment on all new builds? What is that policy at your shop? How many co-workers have done that at their previous places of employment.


Thanks,
Yan

In over forty years of working with bikes I've yet to find an LBS that adjusts hub cones as part of new bike preparation and I know that given the time pressure I certainly didn't.

I thought it was a given that all new Shimano hubs come with their cones overtightened and every mechanic I know of regularly backs off the cones to acquire smooth running and accommodate the added pressure of the QR.

I'm damned if I know how there could be any argument about this.

Yan, you can't argue against logic.

• Cone Adjustment
• Hub Overhaul and Adjustment - Park Tool
• https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMhQlqg7TDA
• Ask a Mechanic Adjusting Cup and Cone Hubs
• http://www.tech-mavic.com/tech-mavic...nt_QRMPlus.pdf

This is what competent and ethical mechanics know and correct,
"If the cones are screwed on too far, they exert pressure on the bearing balls. This causes excessive friction; the wheel will not turn as freely as it should, and the parts will wear out prematurely...
Poor cone adjustment is not usually obvious to a customer, but it is really quite important. If a hub is too tight, the bearing surfaces will self destruct prematurely, and the bike will not roll as freely as it should."


If the bike had hubs with cup and cone bearings then the bearing was adjusted... that was common practice for every decent mechanic I ever knew and/or worked with for more than 30 years and it's what we taught new mechanics in training. We adjusted bearings on all new bikes and every bike that came in for a full tune up. In the days before cartridge bearings every good mechanic, DIY cyclist and racer knew that hub adjustments were critical and that over tightening them certainly was something to be avoided.

^^^^^^^^^ I see no logic here but merely a reiteration of something which everyone who works with bikes knows.

We merely differ on what is usual practice and I seriously doubt that the preparation of new bikes differ that much in our respective countries. The fact remains that most (if not all) hubs and particularly Shimano hubs, are usually received with the cones too tight and do require adjusting in order to attain smooth running and I seem to remember you disputing this.

I have never disputed the idea that new bearings should be adjusted and I have no idea how you ever came to that conclusion. I have argued all along that over tightened bearings need to be adjusted even if common practice nowadays is that they come over tightened from the factory. Downtube is the person who feels it's not necessary and has taken the stance that over tightened bearings are acceptable and that it actually has merits despite logic to the contrary and he has attempted to support this argument by saying that if they come from the factory this way then that should be OK...
Kindly reread this thread.

Does downtube unbox and adjust every bike before it ships out to a customer? If so, bearing preload, including the hubs, should be checked before shipping. If not, then they will ship as set by the manufacturer.

Do downtube bikes even utilize cup and cone bearings or are they cartridge...?

Wow, I had no idea a single comment on overtightened everything would lead to this discussion. In retrospect, it's probably a best practice vs. common practice issue.

I've always wondered why hubs came tight from certain manufacturers. Perhaps the manufacturers assume that since a bike will be set up properly by a shop, it should be properly torqued at some point before it lands in the hands of a customer. So final setup is left to the shop and not the manufacturer.

But the other thing that entered my mind is this: A hub with a lot of play is impossible to true. A hub that's on the tight side will run true more than a hub that is a little loose. And a hub that's loose is actually fairly easy for a non-mechanic to spot; just grab a handful of wheel and move it laterally, see if there's any play.

So if the shop doesn't address the tight hub torque, less chance of being spotted by the end user, and less chance of being a true reflection on the manufacturer.

Thank you, but having re-read the thread I find that Downtube first asserts that "....a solid majority (of hubs) are overtightened at the factory."


You appear to disagree with this as you reply thus:

This above contradicts what every experienced mechanic knows, which is that even "reputable", quality hubs with cones do come over-tightened including Shimano.

You then choose not to attempt to evidence the above and offer the quote below.

Tut tut.

That was a snarky response to finally just bow out of the discussion (and I obviously failed) because it was fruitless. By that point downtube had asserted that he feels bikes are already tuned up at the factory therefore he doesn't do tune ups and if the factory over tightens bearings then that's the way they should be and the manufacturer should know better than I what is right. If you have questions about my stance from the beginning then look at my opening response to downtube:

Care to argue that with him? Have fun.

I do not come here looking for arguments, and I have no idea what I said to initiate this backlash from Bass. To end things on a positive note I would like to:

1. I apologies to Bass, I did not intend to be rude.
2. To clear the facts, I do not have the opinions that Bass is stating I have. I would argue the positions ( supposedly derived from me ) are incorrect as well....I think it is best to quote people, misquotes create problems.

Onto bike related matters

3. Factories have changed in the last 1-2 decades. The average setup time for a new bike has dropped dramatically, the factories have made wonderful positive changes.
4. I have sold thousands of bikes over the years. In spite of the universal hub issues mentioned here, I do not recall a single warranty issue on a hub. I am sure I have had some, but it must be in the low single digits ( probably 1 or 2 ). This tells me that the current system is working pretty well.

Thanks,
Yan

"Grace" may be rare but should always be appreciated. :thumb:

Fairly large truck, International 7500 series box truck, set up as an expediter. The side boxes are under the 22 foot box.
As for weight and top speed, I'm not a racer. I was happy with the speed of my Tank Mini 16, if memory serves, it had a 52 x 14(?) drivetrain. I know it was low enough I could take on the hills where I was, without having to dismount, and on the flat, I could hit around 15 or so mph. I never did mount a cycle computer to that one.
As for weight, I find that irrelevant. I am going to add roughly 170 pounds to the bike when I get on ... maybe more if I need to wear the snowmobile suit to say warm. If I use a side box, I only have to lift it up maybe a foot or less. If I have to put it in the box ... well, I'm "dock high" ...
I'm thinking of maybe just getting a 20 incher or a Huffy/Schwinn retro beach cruiser (with fenders, frame tank, and big chain guard, of course) and putting it in the back. 50 - 60 pounders is what I rode when I was young ... heck even my Sting Ray was a 45 to 50 pounder.
Anyway, I think "light weight" is a bit over rated. I'll bet that if the peloton trained on 3 to 7 speed (or even 48 x 18 single speed) balloon tired, steel frame beach cruisers of 50 pounds and up, they would be much faster and have more endurance, without the use of drugs, when they got on their lighter than a fart race bikes. Especially if they got to where they could get the "clunkers" to an average drug free speed of 20 - 25 mph or more.

Not a bike, but I did pick up a Fusion Sport Board kick scooter (4 wheeled) for $8 at a second/third hand store. Until I can get a bike, I'll just use it. (Talk about a work out! I rode a Razor push scooter 4 miles (round trip) a few times back when I lived in the Keys. Admittedly, it was flat there, but still, going a half mile uphill back to the hotel (truck is in the shop) on that Fusion really got my vintage antique blood pumper going ...