It's much funnier when you know the person's intention, which unfortunately doesn't translate well when typed. I'm all for a tongue in cheek emoticon, however I prefer this
one:
http://www.trbimg.com/img-506c9c56/t...to/400/225x400

It can do but not optimal, try that road with 29er or a 700c probably you won't call it gravel road. My point is folders can tour and with their pros (easy transportation etc), but also with cons. The same applies to big bikes. That's quite fair, isn't it?

Oh no, I may sound like I am against tour on small wheels, no, no, I am for it. I am just explaining the cons, but folders have lot of pros (transportation, storage), and most of all, fun. Folders can be slow on these roads especially on downhill, but who cares we are not racing. Nice pic :-)

Thanks all for your suggestions.

I see that everybody is excluding changing to higher wheels (although somewhere else I hear praises of the 24" as the perfect balance), so I try and focus on the modifications. A recap:

- use straps or SPD's to take advantage of the upward pull;

- change saddle. I know Brooks by fame, but doesn't they need quite a few kilometers to became comfortable?

- change handlebar to something that allows for different position (e.g. butterfly), additionally add grips;

- tires: we have Impac Streetpac 20" x 1.75" in the P8 and Dahon Rotolo 20" x 1.75" in the D7, everything at 4 bars. Does it make sense to change them? Aren't they like the Marathon Supreme size-wise? Better go wider (Big Apple)? Slimmer (anything else)? Less pression and/or different values in the two wheels? This is a little confusing to me...

- position: we keep saddle and handlebar at the same level, the saddle a little below actually;

- gearing: the P8 have a cassette 11-32T and a 52T chainring, D7 have a cassette 13-28T and the same chainring. Reducing the chainring is not an option, I guess, as we use the bikes in the city as well. I suppose the better choice would be to put a double crank set, but I'm still looking for someone near my place that could put their hands there, though...

- load: we'll certainly try to lower it but we do both camping and cooking, so it'll be difficult. In any case we'll try to put some more load in the front.


Congrats for the choice, the Loire part is wonderful!

About the areas of mayor discomfort:

- mainly arms and butt, with the need to change position frequently;

- a general sensation of heavyness and the feeling that we needed to pedal more than the other full size bikes to keep the pace of fellow tourer.

Thanks!

A 24 inch wheel would be a good compromise. I feel many people feel that there is no need to go to a larger folding size when good specific 20 inch bikes are available.


If the bike needs to double up as a city bike then 20 is better comprimise over a 24 or larger I feel.

Re even smaller wheels.

I have a Birdy with big apples ,no racks or mud guard, with bigapples and a thudbuster seatpost.
I use it regularly on grassy fields and the same routes I take the MTB on locally.

I have used the birdie on some mountian bike trails and its coped ok. Main difficulty is major rocks and lack of out of seat ability to go up some hills. Meaning feet on the ground where I might have coped on a MTB.
Despite the softness this bike is very fast and best off road times have been with suspension post fitted. The birdie is more comfortable to ride than my excellent MTB. And off road time nearly as fast.

I also have a touring birdie with a IHG. Its a lot heavier and seems slow to pedal. Its the easiest bike I have used in the city as the front rack doubles as a pull along suitcase type handle when folded. Its a tad unyieldly fully loaded.

I believe jur switched from a Birdie to a Brompton due to the loaded handling?

I suggest that a compact folder can get close enough to a standard bike to double up as a city bike with careful mods or purchases.Its a question of compromises and if you enjoy riding the resulting bike for what ever reason.

Regading the SPD or straps, have you used that before? I mean if you are used to it then go for it, otherwise just stick to flat. I used both, the upward pull is always myth, sometimes you can feel it most time not especially when you are tired, which is always the case for a loaded tour. Besides if you are not used to it, it can be dangerous and you can't wear sandals in summer :-)


The tyres are fine for touring (similar to marathon supreme), but being threaded, they will be slow compared to non threaded (kojak) (yes you can definitely feel it) but more secure on wet or mud. I use kojak for daily commute, for future touring I haven't decided, but probably still a kojak. The folding version is very light as well and they are listed in touring category in schwalbe web site.

Regarding '- a general sensation of heavyness and the feeling that we needed to pedal more than the other full size bikes to keep the pace of fellow tourer.'
It can be different fitness, different load, different components. Many people believe small wheels are inherently slower than big wheels, many may against. It's best you do a test yourself on a same route with same load on different bikes to evaluate the difference.

Re SPD.
I find sdp quicker on the road less effort full.

Personally I recommend wellgo or MKS detachable then use can switch quickly between standard or SDP pedals.

Dont buy SPD shoe cleats for MKS.
Buy mks cleats as they fit shimano and MKS.

Shimano make SPD sandles, I have a pair,nice but expensive.

:roflmao2:

Love it!

FWIW, I think the 20" wheel has very little to do with either comfort or performance.

I'm unfamiliar with the latest Dahon's and how adjustable the ergonomics are on them. I gather that "bike fit" remains as much of an art form as science, so it's pretty difficult to give you good fit advice without actually seeing you on the bike and taking some measurements.

But to elaborate on what has already been said ...

(1) How the bike fits is a big factor in performance and comfort. Especially when you're putting on lots and lots of miles. Having an experienced eye look at you two and give an honest evaluation for how it fits will be helpful. The Dahon's are generally less adjustable than standard bikes. Whether or not you should get a different bike is largely dependent on whether you can get a good fit, IMO. Note that if you say that your butt and arms are tired, I'm thinking that the general fit is probably off and/or your bicycle-conditioning needs to be improved.

(2) Things like a good saddle, ergon grips or bar ends, or different handle bars are all reasonable things to try. A "good saddle" is wildly personal thing. Trying a bunch out at a good bike shop would be helpful. Note that different handlebar could affect the way that the bike folds.

(3) Quality tires make a big difference in performance and comfort. I'm unfamiliar with the tires you used, but using a wide supple tire at lower pressures generally keeps comfort high and rolling resistance low. 4 bars might be high or low depending on your weight plus load that you carry. But my experience is that most folks over pump up their tires thinking it makes the bike go faster. Since the Dahon uses ERTO 406 20" tires, lately my recommendation has been Tioga Powerblocks which come in a broad range of widths, are reasonably priced, and pretty quick. I'm ~200 lb and even with carrying stuff, I pump my 20 x 1.75" Powerblocks to around 40 PSI to get a cushy fast ride.

(4) SPD or straps are nice. Especially when the weather gets wet or if you pedal at a high cadence. But I suspect that the performance improvement is small. It's probably worthwhile to try them at some point, but don't expect them to be a magic bullet.

Bigger tires?

26" tires and tubes are readily available with lots of options. But they're going to hurt the fold and transportation of your bikes. If you do lots of off road technical stuff, then I'd say that the bigger wheels are better for obstacles and such. Otherwise, I think you're fine with the 20" wheel.

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

1) We thought that the bikes were correctly set-up, but we'll surely ask for an evaluation as you say.

2) Yes, we'll try a few saddles.

3) The tires we have should be something like a low quality version of the Marathon, but I may be wrong. When I was evaluating 20" bikes last year I fell in love for the Speed P8 and its Big Apple tires, but that version was old - couldn't find it anywhere in Span - so I ended up with another bike altogether. But I still like those tires. Would they be right for the job?

4) I'll try the straps someday...

5) No, nothing of off road.

Thanks again.

Perhaps others will chime in with their experience, but I've found that when putting on a lot of mileage -- or kilometers! ;) -- that small changes can matter.

If you're going to stick with flat bars for better folding I'd really consider Ergon grips (or some knock-off) -- they increase the contact patch where one tends to rest their hands and weight distributing the load over a bigger area -- or some other bar end to increase the hand positions. I emphasize this because it's relatively cheap and seems to make a big improvement for lots of folks.

Sure. Why not? Big Apples are a good tire with some flat protection. Personally, I'm not worried about flats and prefer something lighter and faster but it's horses for courses! If it matters, I put them on my kids' bikes when they were younger.

RE: bike fit. I took my bike friday in for a fitting because I was having discomfort in places that made me want to ride less. I was really astounded at how OFF my set up was. I had followed all the basic recommendations myself (KOP, leg extension, etc.) but the fitter made the bike fit me, not the other way around. It's early days yet since the fit, but I have noticed more power, less fatigue, and less next-day pain. The brooks saddle is still killing my ass, but it is not broken in yet (or I am not). If you are going to do a fit, I would wait on swapping things like handlebars, etc., until the fit. We did that as part of the fitting process and then made a record of my measurements. A good fitter will figure out what changes you need in terms of positions as well as gear.

Having used a Dahon OEM bike for commuting for a long time, I can say that it can work without big problems. My wife has toured Tasmania (1200km over 3 weeks) on that same bike. I put a Big Apple only on the rear wheel, that's where it counts the most.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...d/DSCN8279.jpg

I installed a smaller chainring on it for climbs, which she shifted to by using a stick:
http://www.dekter.net/Tassie_2007/DSCN8772.JPG

I also put comfortable Ergo grips and barends on for her, which she used all the time while climbing.
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...d/DSCN8304.jpg

and even while walking too-steep climbs:
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t...d/DSCN8509.jpg

Here is a Brooks break-in procedure written by Onbike1939 that will give you a broken-in Brooks saddle from the 1st day. I tried it, it really works well:

Next visit your local saddler and buy a tin of Hydrophane. This is a leather dressing which softens and makes waterproof. I like to gently heat the saddle to 70degreesC as I feel this allows the leather to absorb the dressing more easily but this is not mandatory.

Using a small, soft brush, carefully apply the dressing to the underside of the saddle. Be patient and apply one coat at a time. Keep a sharp eye on the topside of the saddle and stop immediately you see any stain soak through. Some darkening can take place and can provide an attractive weathered appearance but be careful as too much can remove the polished finish on the topside. Make sure you cover around the rivets, as this is where cracks appear with age. Take time between coats and ensure you see the results of one coat before applying another.

When this is to your satisfaction begin to work the wings of the saddle up and down until they move easily. They should loosen up quite quickly to the point that they can be raised up level with the seat of the saddle.

Now place the saddle on a folded towel on the floor. If this could be between two chairs which could offer support it would be fine. Now lift up the wings so that they do not press down on the floor and impede the downward movement of the leather. While doing this step onto the saddle with your stocking foot and begin to push down on the saddle. Push down hard and repeatedly, and continue to do so moving from end to end of the saddle ensuring that the wings remain raised. You will find that in a relatively short time that the saddle will flex and become supple.

The longer you spend treating the saddle in this way the more comfortable it becomes. From time to time flex the wings also until ultimately the saddle depresses easily under the pressure of your palm. Make sure it does so from the rear to the toe. While this process will waterproof your saddle I would still cover it at the first sign of rain. A comfortable saddle is a precious thing and not to be risked. A light smear of Proofhide� and there you are, you have successfully conditioned your saddle.

Again, credit to Onbike1939 for the Brooks procedure.

:eek:
:eek:

Okay, after recowering from the shock I have decided I may want to try this. I have two Brooks saddles that are hard. I know this could shorten the life of the saddle but I do not intend to live forever (unlike mr Bass :p) so I can live with that. Also I can buy a new one when the softened ones give in.

Not riding enough becouse a uncomfy saddle could also shorten your life.

Not sure if the stuff can be bought where I live I wanted to investegate into what the stuff is made of: https://answers.yahoo.com/question/i...4085939AATkY9e

So i would look for leather dressing not oil.

Next, applying on the underside: Do you apply on the wings also or do you want them to stay stiff to help keeping the saddle in shape after softening?

Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...ather_dressing

It's probably a dumb question, but instead of doing all that work to get the brooks saddle to soften up, why can't you just release the tension a little bit with the wrench (remembering how many turns) and the slowly return it to the original tension as you break it in? I did try the standing on saddle thing when I got mine (read it somewhere) but I think I would have needed to borrow a bigger person. Next time I'll just buy one of the broken-in ones...

Sarcasm in written form is nothing new and has been around for centuries however the internet now allows people to react with knee-jerk swiftness and put their foot in their mouths and then claim that it's now somehow difficult to distinguish once they've been outed by people who caught the sarcasm.

A Brooks does take some time to get worn in for optimal comfort but I've never found them to be uncomfortable to begin with. I consider myself lucky... some people never get to the point where they feel comfortable on a Brooks... or any other saddle for that matter.
***UPDATE*** - When it comes to breaking in a Brooks I now refrain from using any 'quick break-in' methods only because I made the mistake of following one of these methods a long time ago and almost ruined a brand new saddle. If anyone does opt for a 'quick' method please refrain from using oils or anything like petroleum jelly and such. It weakens the leather on a microscopic level and allows the fibers to detach from one another... basically the strength given to the leather during the tanning process is negated. Stick to tried and true leather conditioning products. You can test a product using leather shoe laces or leather scraps. Apply the treatment and let it soak for a week then try to pull the leather apart... you'll know which products will or won't work.

As for tires, ride quality is dependent on many factors, not just diameter, width and pressures used. Tire construction regarding rubber compound(s) on the tread and sidewalls, the type of carcass and thread count also play their parts. I've never tried the Impac nor can I find any info on them so I can't remark on how they compare to Marathons.

It's nice to see people straying from convention and willing to try 'new' things... it's very common to just accept the notion that front and rear tires must match.

Hehehe, I'm not sure how to read the last sentence... :p


This whole story puts our complaints to shame... :rolleyes:

How much load was she carrying, do you remember? More or less...


This is a risk I guess... What about the Brooks with springs, like the Flyer?


Mmm... I was guessing so.


So, is there a general rule for tires in the context of touring? I mean, does the back tire need to be different somehow from the front one? And what about pressure, should they match?

No rules really, AFAIC it's a free for all and whatever works is the way to go. It's not the most informative answer but then generally accepted rules are merely a starting point and the rest is a matter of experimentation. I'll normally use a slightly higher pressure in the rear because that's where most of my weight is but stay within the tire's recommended pressures.

They're decent saddles for a particular type of riding. I have one on a cruiser but then it's a bike I ride very casually. The ride gets really 'hobby-horse' springy if I attempt to ramp up to my usual pedaling cadence.

Incidentally, I could never warm up to the Brooks B73 type saddles. The three springs were just too much for me to handle and it felt like a combination of riding a bicycle while balancing on a yoga ball.

Hah! I had an extra set of 16" Big Apples from another folding bike and put them on my kids' bikes. My general feeling is that life is too short for crappy tires. It makes the riding experience better enough that I'm willing to make their experience better too.

I love my Brooks B17. It's heavy though ... something to think about if you're carrying the bike or packing it up. I used neats-foot oil on mine ala Captain Bike.

Leather Saddles

If you're sitting more upright and want more cushion, a spring saddle is a reasonable option.

... and the tires do not need to match. It's just fashion.

I've never tried it since the neats-foot oil technique has always worked for me.

I imagine that without tension that lots of weight on the stiff leather might cause minor cracks and such.

I have Big apple tyres on the rear of my touring Birdy and marathon on the front. I pump them up really hard due to suspension.

Rather than call names or label someone,why don't you report it to the moderation team?

I used the warm upside down saddle and let it soak up a tablespoon Of the regular Brooks Proofide .

Brooks Pro .. Now 35 years old.. it even smoothed out a top gouge from the bike falling Over 20 years ago..