Hi!

My girlfriend and I own respectively a Dahon Speed D7 and a Dahon Mu P8, with which last year we toured the Loire in France (700km).
It was our first long tour - we were totally inexperienced - but in the end everything went fantastic and we enjoyed it a lot.
Nevertheless we felt our bikes where somewhat limiting us, mainly in terms of comfort and performance. We rarely rode more than 50km/day but at the end of the stage, especially if it had a few climbs or some gravel, we where feeling like we had ridden twice as much.
We are two medium size people and, though we are not experienced and surely can train more, we know how to ride. Apart from the saddles, we didn't prepare the bikes in any way, everything was stock. We had more or less 15kg of baggage in each bike.

This year we are planning to do another tour, maybe a bit longer, but we want to be better prepared (and suffer less), even if it means to change bikes.
We'd like to keep using folding ones and to keep extending trips length, so I'm evaluating two possibilities:

1) keep the bikes but tweak them.

Does it make sense given the specific bikes we own? Which alteration do you suggest? Tires? Wheels? Handlebar? More speeds?
Keep in mind that Dahon dealers are scarce where I live (Barcelona) and people able to put their hands on those bikes even less.

2) sell the bikes and switch to bigger wheels.

Are they more confortable? Here in Spain they're still quite uncommon and not easy to find in stores.
The ones I found available are Docklands 1824 Country (they tell me that is a copy of Tern Joe C21), Dahon Expresso, Montague Urban, Montague Navigator and Montague Paratrooper. The one really made for touring is the Navigator, but costs.

Can you advise?

Thanks a lot.

Roberto

I imagine you would be considerably more comfortable on a touring bike or any bike that's not a folding bike. Doesn't Europe have train cars for full size bicycles?

We like our foldings and we use them in the city as well. I'm not so sure about buying a second bike...

Anyway... in most of Europe's long-distance trains bicycles can travel free and without reservation only if folded or disassembled, otherwise you need to pay. In most of the busses we took we could travel only with folded/disassembled bikes. It looks to me that having a foldable bike is quite useful, especially if you need to jump on a train/bus that is leaving quickly (we almost lost two).

A 26" foldable wouldn't be a valid alternative?

Hello glade you enjoyed the tour.
Did you carry rucksacks or use bike racks ect. That can make quite a difference. Handling is usually worse with baggage on the bike ,but its less tiring due to reduced sweating and postural demands.

26 inch folders Are disappointingly clumsy to fold and arent much better than taking wheels off a non folding bike. Certinally all but the navigator would not be a lot easier than what you have out of the 26" You name. Dahon Expresso is heavy.


So try some kojack tyres and a lower riding postion first on your Dahons and see if that is most or all of the difference you want.

Failing that.
May be consider a bike friday or an airnimal. These are less good in cities due to fold.
A 20 inch wheel folder can really perform. Maybe consider narrower high pressure tyres and a lower riding position. I did a road race spec Downtube and ended up selling my full sized road race bike as it became redundant.

I dont think there is a lot of point going for another folder in 20 as performance gains will be small over what you have. Brompton would be slower and Birdie also (but more comfortable) in smaller wheeled bikes.

I recommend if you change to either a Quality 24 inch bike like a Airaminal joey or a faster 20 inch like a tern or Dahon or friday. Some of the faster versions might not work well for touring.

If its comfort you need consider a suspension seat post like a thudbuster.
I was in Barcelona 2 years ago and I saw mainly Bitwin folders, generic U folders and Bromptons amongst dahons. And a few hired mini vellos.

Tires make a huge difference. Having a comfortable position with the proper leg extension is also huge. The handlebar thing comes into play with position, although some Ergon type grips may allow for a flat bar without discomfort especially if you add mini barends to give your hands something to pull on with hills or simply change your hand position.
I also find SPD pedals with appropriate bike shoes to allow for a more efficient pedal action since I can pull up as well as push down. As it says in the Bible"be kind to your Ass for it bears you". A saddle that is too soft and rubs the inner thigh can really drain your energy. A slimmer harder saddle may add to distance traveled with less effort. All these are fairly cheap fixes.

May sound silly but wear good cycling shorts..and do not wear any pants underneath the shorts...
As for your bikes..on the Speed D7 change the chainwheel at the front to a 42 or 44 ..You will find you can get up most hills and travel more easily with lower gears..I do not think you can change the rear cassette to one bigger than 30 because of the Neos derailleur..If the other bike has a Neos derailleur also then again change the front chainwheel to about 42 or 44...If the Mu P8 has a normal derailleur you could change the cassette to an 11 to 34 but you might need a longer cage derailleur..
If you are going to carry a heavier load then it might be worth getting the Dahon front pannier rack..and get the Dahon touring pannier rack or any larger pannier rack will fit with a bit of work..I would get the rear wheels on both bikes rebuilt by a good wheelbuilder but no such need with the front wheels..
I think both your bikes will be fine for touring...as long as you just make a few simple tweaks..no need to change them..You can tour on any bike..I have toured around Thailand on my Brompton and now use an old Dahon 6 speed steel folder to tour there...tough as anything .Last month I met a chap in Bangkok touring on an old Raleigh one speed ..did the job fine..Hans Stucke has toured the world for the last few years on a Brompton..
I think both your bikes are fine for touring

Comfort
* Padded biking shorts
* Power Grips: these allow you to wear regular shoes, sneakers, sandals while clipping you in.
* Grips: Padded Ergons with bar-ends
* Handle-bar: a butterlfy bar for varied hand positions
* Wider, greater volume performance tires (Schwalbe Marathon series)

Performance
* Lower gearing through smaller chainring, a wider range cogset (Shimano XT 11-42 or 11-40), and/or a Dual-Drive internal gear hub
* Wider tires for gravel
* carrying more weight in the front on the luggage plug on the head-tube

Of course ergonomics are the most important factor for touring which is why I have a Bike Friday NWT. It was made to give me the riding position of the big wheeled touring bikes I used to ride yet it's physically smaller and folds. Also due to the 20" wheels there's more room to pack stuff above the wheels yet keep the center of gravity lower than with a traditional large wheeled touring bike. Other points worth mentioning:

• PowerGrips or the like (I prefer Origin8 Pro Grip straps) allow for efficient pedaling yet don't limit you to wearing one specific shoe.
• A good saddle is a must... Brooks work for me... I haven't worn bike shorts in 30 years and again, am not limited to just wearing bike specific shorts or pants yet I can rack up the miles in comfort.
• When it comes to tires thinner isn't necessarily better. Although I've found that there's a very slight improvement in speed when using thinner (28) Schwalbe Duranos the ride of wider (35) and lower pressure Schwalbe Marathon Plus tires offer a more comfortable ride day in and day out which means a lot to me on a bike with no suspension. They're also more puncture resistant.
• Gearing the bike with more options in smaller steps/increments within the speed range you spend most of your time in helps.

My SPDs are two sided...SPD on one side and a regular shoe side also. I can ride in Crocs if I like, bulky hiking boots and bike shoes too. I totally agree with getting any load you carry as low as you can without heel strike or other interface. 15 kg as a load seems to be quite a bit unless you are camping out and cooking your own food. Perhaps you could pare that down a bit? Something that clicks on and off when you arrive at a destination or feel safer with your stuff with you when leaving your bike for a meal or whatever is also a big plus. And as we all have said, a good fit/ ergonomics is critical.

Hey, you didn't tell too much about in what area you feel uncomfortable or lackness in your last trip. I am probably going to do the same route this year ( Eurovelo 6 which includes Loire in France) on a Dahon like folder. I have been using it for commute and some 50 miles day tour. I have tried tweaking all around the bike for the optimal performance. Here is some thoughts.

The biggest limitation of a 20 inch wheel or (smaller) folder is the small wheel, on bumpy road it lost too much momentum too easily, large wheels would just roll over without feeling a thing. Small wheels also make obstacles feel bigger so you feel them more easily (discomfort). This often makes people feel more easy to be tired on small wheels. You won't feel much difference on smooth surfaces though. I have tried many kind of tyres: schwalbe one (23 mm), durano (28 mm), kojak (35 mm), marathon supreme (42 mm), big apple (50 mm). Big apple is super comfy around 30 psi, I changed for it once and almost felt like a new bike, all the patholes no more! But they are also very very heavy (weight and higher rolling resistance). On the other hand, schwalbe one is very fast, I mean I can instantly feel the less rolling resistance, but as expected very bumpy at 100 psi. Now I am settle on kojak (35mm), low rolling resistance (similar to durano), relatively wide tyre, good grip dry or wet, except mud. The key is not to pump the tyre rock solid, at about 2/3 of highest pressure, they feel much more comfortable and I can let go some more air if I know I have to ride some bumpy section.

Posture is not as important an limiting factor although there is only limited adjustment on a folder. I find setting the saddle and bar to be level or bar slightly higher than saddle is good for long distance. We don't have drop bars so can't change posture on the fly, so I would rather to set it to a comfortable position rather than a aerodynamic one (yes on my folder I can set the bar to be a lot lower than the saddle).

And the gearing, many folders come with limited gear range so may be not enough for long and steep hills. But this normally can be modified. I have changed mine original 9 speed to 18 speed by swap for a double crank set (53- 39 T), my cassette is 11 - 32 T, so the range is ok for most terrain. Changing to a double crank and adding a set of front front derailleur, shifter means some work and experience. There is easy way though, the easiest is to change for a smaller ring, something like 39 T. Yes you will lost the higher range, but what are we talking about here, for touring, 39 or similar chain ring is ideal for most terrains (assuming you have a 32 T cog in the rear.). Even for non touring 39 front - 11 rear gives good enough speed (forget about racing).

Bike weight, a Dahon folder normally weight less than a ok touring bike or a MTB, that makes climbing easier in theory. But in practical, there is not much difference considering you will have some luggage anyway.

Handling, small wheels are twitchy by nature, I often feel need to be more focusing than on my big bike, that can contribute to tiredness. I found wide tyres such as big apple can considerably improve on this. Also it feels more twitchy when going up hill, because front wheel is unweighted. So maybe adding a front luggage rack can help on this.

20" wheel Bike Fridays are used by people touring around the globe .. Now.

They are made to fit in a suitcase so you skip oversize Luggage Fees.

FWIW, I have the same gear range with a 16:53 in my 20" wheel Bi Fri as my 16:38 in a 26" wheel (Rohloff Hub)

Whatever the band of a folder (so the design, build quality, price etc), it will never overcome the limit of a small wheel (lose momentum easily on rough roads), except you only tour on good roads, in that case, wheel size doesn't matter.

You Own One and have toured on it then to Know? Raced on a BMX track? ?


Bike Fridays Travel Bikes, Designed fold at trip start and finish to get you there

I wouldnt call it the best for daily fold commuting . Tikit is their bike for that.

Heinz Stuke Used a Bike friday on his trips for years , now He Is a Sponsored Brompton Rider ..

It doesn't matter if you do lose momentum on gravel roads because if you have any sense you will not be going fast on gravel roads..
The old Dahon I use to tour on in Thailand is great on gravel and potholed roads..It has 20 by 1.50 tyres and they are great for bumpy ,country roads..

Everything has it's compromises but to me smaller wheels have so many more advantages than disadvantages regardless of pavement quality or gravel roads.

LOL. look at those micro wheels! ridiculous. and that monotube design.. clearly, an inferior design both in aesthetics and engineering. that bike is probably also made out of steel. lmao. one thing's for certain, he won't get far on that piece of anachronistic junk.

p.s. where's the toptube??? it probably fell off. lmao.

Trusst you to say something like that.

trusst you to respond trussting me to say something like that.

These forums are full of people who have found small wheels satisfactory for more diverse riding. I hear of people saying that Bromptoms are slow and poor handling compaired to a road bike. I got a mezzo to preform close to a road race bike and a Brompton to be quick and handle very very well indeed. I have a Birdie set up which works superbly off road. More comfortable than my quality full sized MTB.

I don't tour, but many other find the correct 20 inch folders very practical and enjoyable.
Many people also tour on Birdies and brommies.

It depends on your need for performance, values, and importantly wether you enjoy the bike you are riding.

I think he was taking a swipe at those (like myself) who prefer the aesthetics and the fundamentally greater structural strength of the classic diamond-shape geometry.

pffft

brompton
mezzo
birdie

16" wheels
monotubes relying on atrocious looking "humpback" design for structural integrity.
no triangulation
long flexy stems with flimsy latches

2/10

fit for rides of 400m or less to the local pub and back.

only saving grace is small folded size making it is easy to hide the bike in the shrubbery outside the pub to avoid derisive laughter.

Smallwheeler, clearly I am missing something here...you are negative about small wheel bikes but your name is "smallwheeler"?
Is the sarcasm failing to translate or something? I'm not a brompton owner (have a bike friday) but there are tons of people who happily tour on them.

He is a troll.

He isn't. He isn't sarcastic either. He is tongue in cheek. (He might start using emoticons to eliminate confusion... )

[edit] Oh I see Bruce has already used a tongue in cheek emoticon.