Kojak are fragile tires that wear fast.

Vello also experience delay but nothing comparable with Helix and within about one month we will see if their promises are real or... just promises what is not the case for Helix.

Velo creators have experience of building bikes, they were successful with their first mode what is not the case of the Helix creator. And the Vellobike+ frame is build by am experienced bike frame builder what is not the case for Helix that combines the risks of wrong bike design and wrong frame manufacturing.

On bikes without suspension, what makes them comfortable is the tire type and width, not really the size and not for the relatively small difference between ETRTP406 and ETRTO507.
Bigger wheels also increase the weight.

But, as you say, at this stage where none of those two bikes exists, it is a question of taste and confidence in the creator(s).

The tire choices are very limited for my wifes bike. It is the standard size used for UCF junior racing so they can be found. The size is 25-520 or 24x1 and she uses Panaracer Pasales. Yes the frame is designed to break/take apart and we added that at the time of the build. About $250 when hers was built versus $500+ if added later. It is very strong system that is easy for her to take apart. The cables on the bike also have quick disconnects. Not something you would want to do in 5 minutes but can easily be done in 30 minutes. She only does it for air travel. Seven is an American custom bike company and make some of the best titanium bikes in the world. Roger

Their first model Vello was supposed to to ship in March 2015 and started shipping in October 2015. The second, actual model was supposed to ship in April 2017 and will hopefully start to ship in February 2018. Clearly a massively shorter delay than the Helix but still a considerable one - especially as with their second project they already had experience AND they outsource pretty much everything apart from the design.

Well: I personally did not like their first version at all as it seemed to be very useless as a folding bike and had a bunch of heavy design flaws in my opinion (saw it at a trade fare once it was available). They clearly needed a better version. From that perspective I liked the second one better as the folding fork improved folded size massively. However: I am still not convinced by the bike after having seen and ridden the prototype last year as in detail for my taste there are still huge design flaws that could have been avoided, especially regarding the fold. I.e. when folded it is not easy to roll the bike and the folding fork's mechanism is quite similar to the one of the Tyrell, needing to unscrew at the fork crown and thus not only needing time but also - at least to me - giving a little bit of an uncomfortable feeling with the mechanism on this very part of the bike. And the fold seems not to be too impressive anyway:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/6...3000_s_4_2.jpg

The included lights seem pretty useless to me (again a matter of taste) and so on and so on. Not saying that it would be a bad bike - just not of interest for me.

Regarding the use of an outsourced factory for frame building this obviously has the advantage of having someone experienced building the bikes from day one but the downside of having to order batches from the factory in Asia, having a delivery time alone of six weeks for the frames from the framemaker to the factory by ship once the batch has been finished (that's what the founder told me last year) with a massive impact on lead time and flexibility towards changes and customer demand, being one of many customers of the framemaker (thus not always being the first in the row), lack of control and understanding of the actual frame-making (as it is an outsourced process) and so on and so on. And as the actual building of the bikes once the frames have been delivered is outsourced as well (in this case to Bulgaria, if I remember correctly) the same patterns apply again for this part of the process.

With the Helix they obviously have to build up experience (which initially took far longer than they expected) but with the inhouse building of the frames and their sophisticated production process they should be scalable, flexible and can easily continuously improve their design if necessary. And they have everything under their control and a far better understanding of their product. Therefor the longer lead time at the start may be an advantage later on - which is pretty much what Brompton say about their inhouse manufacturing.

Regarding the geometry of the Vello and the Helix: The Helix's measurements are outlined in very detail on their webpage. Therefor at least a knowledgable person can decide if the bike will fit him or not, where limitations may apply (which clearly is the case at some points) and if they are self-fixable. Not so much for the vello. Plus with the vello the shape of the lower tube of the frame at least to me is more of a design thing than useful for a bicycle's geometry.

On the other hand: The Helix is a groundbreakingly different approach and bike in many aspects whereas - at least to me - the Vello is "just another 20" folder". Though it is not bad I just can't see the advantage or why I should buy one.


The difference in ride quality is not that small in practice (if talking about a more or less similar width). Did you actually ride a 24" folder? My Airnimal Joey is 24" and I have used Kojaks on it as well as Kenda Quests - both more than ok on a 24". On my Brompton the Kojak tends to get a lot of punctures (therefore I love and hate it at the same time on the Brommi), not so on the Joey (for whatever reason). While my Moulton TSR easily keeps up to the Joey in terms of ride comfort this is clearly not the case with my unsuspended 20" bikes.

Regarding weight: The 10-speed derailleur version of the helix is stated with 10-11 kg. The non-electric derailleur version of the Vello (which seems to be the most comparable with the Helix) weights 12 kg (with only 8 gears instead of 10), according to their spec.


I'd assume both will deliver, hopefully. The Helix guy had and still has the rockier road of the two but seems totally dedicated. I hope this will pay off for him (and for his backers). Clearly he is obviously still more at risk, having the bike not gone through testing yet and with an unlear amount of the funding left to spend.

Thank you for your reply gentlemen :). Makes my Sunday coffee taste much better when I’ve got some helix reading to occupy me!

I suppose only time will tell with both...and if we get both the helix and the velo then the folding bike market will be a better place for it!

It's not "if".
It's "when".
You have my personal guarantee that the Helix will be delivered.
(I just won't say when.)
Why?
It's just too elegant to not exist.

I'm considering asking for a tour of the factory when I pick up my bike.
Mrs Revolt is itching to visit Toronto again anyway.

Th first version of te Vello was not a full folding bike, it was a bike where the front wheel must be removed to have a complete fold (like the Ahooga and Baike Friday PakIt) but the second generation has a folding fork like the Tyrell for instance, the Tyrell folding fork is a proven design, not (yet ?) for the Helix folding fork (that was redesigned several times by Peter), the fork being a crucial element for safety, this is another risk of the Helix (and also to a less extend for the new Vello because it is similar but not the same as the Tyrell).

The second generation has also a reduced weight, the non-electric version with Alfine 11 hub (which isn't lightweight) is specified at 10.5kg (with aluminum frame) what is not bad https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/v...bike-bicycle#/

I do not know any folding bike with 24" wheels, but the non folding 24" I tested and owned (but it was an ETRTO520, not ETRTO507, size chosen to have road tires). didn't impress me at all vs. ETRTO406 (I could compare both size with the same type of tire = Schwalbe Durano, 23x520 and 28x406, I also had Ultremo ZX in 23x406, but this was a real high performance road tire, what is not the case of the Durano, never tried Schwalbe One 23x406, I now use Pro One 28x406).

Like on the Moulton, for small wheels to have both comfort and efficiency, the Moulton solution with road bike suspension is for me the best.

About ETRTO520 wheel size, this wheel size is a nightmare for finding tires ! For that reason, I would never advise anybody to choose that size (for the same reason, I would never advise anybody to buy a Noulton with 17" ETRTO369 wheels).

There are very few options, the Panaracer Pasela is one but it is more a city tire.
Terry had one type of tire in ETRTO520 (don't know if it still exists, Terry was promoting ETRTO520 wheels for small size women road bike).
The only other tire I know and only real road bike tire in ETRTO520 is the Schwalbe Durano 23x520, when I wrote "road tires" above, I put a "s" at tire because... there are two wheels, for the model of road tire in ETRTO520, to my knowledge, there is only one, no "s" needed on the word tire !

Yes, that's the typical issue with choosing 24".

Its somewhat limited with regards to tyre choices (, if you don't even talk about availability that is). The 406 wheel size by far have the widest choices. 451 choices have improved in recent years but its still a very, very distant second.

Moreover, 24" is meaningless : it may mean ETRTO 507, ETRTO 520, ETRTO 540 or ETRTO 541 !

Same for 20" = ETRTO 406 or ETRTO 451 !

Same for 16" = ETRTO 305 or ETRTO 349 !

...waiting patiently for the newsletter from helix with an update!!!!
Anyone heard anything else???

Probably during this coming weekend.

Indeed Helix updates are published on a two weekly schedule around Saturday.
But Helix in the last update specifically requested not to leak outside of the backers. So I am not sure how much will trickle trough..

Regarding the hush request, if I was a betting man, I'd say the team is trying to both get backers reassured about ongoing production and not spike "the market" with crazy false hopes.
So my bet is they are happy to announce progress but not confident.

The newsletter seems to be referring to that sent to people who requested to be kept updated, who are not backers but interested parties. So that would mean info suitable for the general public l am guessing. I now fall into that category after Surfhenk took over my backer position.

I am also guessing that the letter would coincide with the next update.

Helix responds to any emails I send, but I receive updates in the customer portal.
In it, they requested not reposting the content.
Suffice to say that progress continues, & I look forward to my bike.

It seems you have made this point time after time. It does not mean there won't be any.

It seems I was talking to somebody about something that this comment relates to, but it seems it was ages ago. So I don't know what you're referring to or why you've brought it up now.

I just don't see the sense in making this point over and over.

Dude, I went back five pages to try to figure out what you're complaining about and gave up. This thread has been around two years; if you're going to re-argue every point I've made in that time, we're going to be here two more years. Since you can't even provide the context of my months old comment, let's just let it go.

Latest update is out, including a good little surprise. All good, though implication is that the photos we've seen are not of the final bike. Be interesting to see what's in the newsletter when that is issued.

Are you talking the update that only the backers can see? I’m subscribed to the public newsletter and didn’t see anything yet...

Yes

Without giving away any confidential info in the latest update, I can say that progress looks real. It all makes too much sense to be the fraud which some have claimed Helix is. And at the bike's stage of development, the tooling issues resolved, & the stock on hand, the dream looks soon to be realized.

I don't think it's a fraud, I just think he didn't know what he was doing and it was unethical to involve more pre-buyers to try to right the ship. Good on him and all the investors if a bike finally gets delivered, but this process has been ridiculous.

I see nothing unethical going on. I've been there & done that, ie, unbeknowingly starting ambitious projects, running short on resources, & doing whatever is necessary to succeed.
I pre-ordered with this in mind, confident that Helix was doing its job. I don't envy him...it's been a long, demanding, & certainly stressful process to get this far. Opinions will vary, but the odds look good to me.

Everyone hopes you're right.