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Helix Update?

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Old 01-06-19, 08:54 PM
  #1401  
MrFlamey
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Originally Posted by AvnerBen View Post
I have noticed that my order numbers are followed by "(not actual)". What could that mean?
Mine too, and it's a recent change, so probably a result of them working out the final checkout etc. I asked a few months ago if my order number meant that they had sold 1400+ helixes, because I was worried about how long it would take to get the bike. I was told that the number isn't the number of bikes sold, although going by the Kickstarter, and how early I made a pre-order, it seemed a fair estimate at how many they might have sold to that point. Maybe Helix wanted to clarify that it isn't the number of bikes sold, and probably also isn't the order that the bikes will be shipped in too. However, they have a machine that engraves serial numbers and bike number (1-number produced), and I doubt they would go to the hassle of doing it out of order. Maybe they want to ship to the angriest people first to placate them, who knows

There should be a real update today. Fingers crossed! (well, they've been crossed for quite a while already)
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Old 01-06-19, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFlamey View Post
There should be a real update today. Fingers crossed! (well, they've been crossed for quite a while already)
Isn't today over already? I thought helix was on the east coast?
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Old 01-06-19, 10:54 PM
  #1403  
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Originally Posted by Revoltingest View Post
Some day I'll want the electric assist option.
I don't want the mid-drive, which would likely mean a both
a new frame & long engineering development process.
I want something like the Copenhagen wheel, which is
contained entirely (batteries too) within the wheel.
This would be a straight swap out of one wheel,
& it wouldn't compromise the fold.

For something which wouldn't require any development
by Helix, the Rubee might work well for occasional
use.
Who wants what?

Ref...
https://www.superpedestrian.com/en/tech
https://newatlas.com/rubbee-x/52228/
Consider this one. I like it better than Rubbee because you can't use rear racks or fenders with that. https://onemotor.co
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Old 01-07-19, 12:35 AM
  #1404  
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Originally Posted by MrFlamey View Post
Mine too, and it's a recent change, so probably a result of them working out the final checkout etc. I asked a few months ago if my order number meant that they had sold 1400+ helixes, because I was worried about how long it would take to get the bike. I was told that the number isn't the number of bikes sold, although going by the Kickstarter, and how early I made a pre-order, it seemed a fair estimate at how many they might have sold to that point. Maybe Helix wanted to clarify that it isn't the number of bikes sold, and probably also isn't the order that the bikes will be shipped in too. However, they have a machine that engraves serial numbers and bike number (1-number produced), and I doubt they would go to the hassle of doing it out of order. Maybe they want to ship to the angriest people first to placate them, who knows

There should be a real update today. Fingers crossed! (well, they've been crossed for quite a while already)
Anyone done. the maths? 1400 bikes on order, no production for 3 years, and only expenses for that period - not really so healthy for a new company, is it!
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Old 01-07-19, 03:27 AM
  #1405  
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Number of bikes

I think the number should be slightly higher, judging by the number given to the other bike I bought from another backer half a year ago. They had that order remembered.
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Old 01-07-19, 03:31 AM
  #1406  
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Can they make it

Peter gave a rather detail account of his financial resources in one of his latest videos. According to the video he can make it through another year.
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Old 01-07-19, 04:51 AM
  #1407  
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Do you have to sublmit yearly or monthly reports to the various authorities in Canada? You do everywhere else, and they are usually public. Perhaps a look at them might help, especially as the longer there is no production, the more people wil drop off the waiting list. Either that, or he is hoping for a takeover bid.
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Old 01-07-19, 04:58 AM
  #1408  
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Originally Posted by AvnerBen View Post
Peter gave a rather detail account of his financial resources in one of his latest videos. According to the video he can make it through another year.
But the question is not whether he can make it through another year (not delivering), but how much money and resources are left and if he can deliver all bikes from that.
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Old 01-07-19, 09:06 AM
  #1409  
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Originally Posted by AvnerBen View Post
I think the number should be slightly higher, judging by the number given to the other bike I bought from another backer half a year ago. They had that order remembered.
Mine is a preorder, not backer position. I assume backer numbers would be lower, but apparently the number doesn't correspond to the number of bikes ordered, so who knows? Also, still no update :/ I hope there is one in the next day or so, because I don't really want to wait another week, and we were promised one this week.
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Old 01-07-19, 10:24 AM
  #1410  
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Hey, at least he's not having to deal with the tariffs.
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Old 01-07-19, 03:42 PM
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About the electrification of the Helix bike. I build my one ebike before and would like to share some of my thoughts about it. I hope it helps some of you in their decision making.

The obvious advantage of the Helix bike is its bigger size and therefore better stability (let’s see if the first test riders can confirm that) at higher speeds compared to other folding bikes.

I quote from the Helix website: "An electric conversion can be installed by the end user. Helix has a standard 135mm dropout spacing and we will offer a set of dropouts that is compatible with standard rear drive hub axles. Helix should only be used with pedal assist type electric conversion not exceeding 250W. Any other type of electric conversion will void the warranty."

If you choose a motor with 250W it depends on the country you live how fast you’re allowed to ride. In the EU 25 km/h in the US 20 mph (32 km/h).

At speeds of only 25 km/h I don’t think the Helix has many advantages compared to a smaller folding bikes like the e-brompton, e-GoCyleor the e-hummingbird. At speeds of 32 km/h the Helix probably has a slight edge over the competition.

I think where the Helix would really shine is at speeds of around 45km/h. But for such speeds the frame design as well as the whole breaking system would need to be redesigned. It would also be nice to have a suspension to smooth the ride at such high speeds. You would also need a stronger motor of around 350W to keep such speeds for longer.

In my experience an electric motor assisting up to 25km/h is most useful in hilly regions, but the extra weight is always an annoyance especially for a folding bike that you need to carry around often. If you live in a flat area in the EU it makes almost no sense since you are mostly faster than 25km/h anyway.

An electric assist up to 32 km/h for US citizens is noticeably better in the flats and I think it can add real value to the riding experience if the system is not to heavy.

250W however is not that much power. It is good enough for quick starts and helps a lot at light elevation but depending on where the motor is located the low power can be an issue a hub motor for example can overheat and fail at steeper hills.
Americans are allowed to add more power of up to 750 watts to their bikes without getting into legal trouble and I would definitely use more than 250W if I had the choice and when losing the bikes warranty is the only disadvantage. Not sure how the insurance react to accidents caused by such DIY builds in the EU they don’t pay anything which is really bad.

In short if you live in the EU in most cases a 250W motor is not worth the trouble and money and the extra weight is like poison for a folding bike. However if money is no problem you can build some surprisingly light e bikes and when living in a hilly region it might even be a good idea to add a motor. I would give the following motor recommendations to EU citizens.

1. Add-e (add-e.at/?lang=en and electricbikereview.com/add-e/250w-kit/) is an expensive and noisy system but it is the lightest, high-quality option with that much power I know of. Installation seems easy and simple for everyone.

2. Bafang MINI-Hub (bicyclingtrade.com.au/news/trade/bafang-announces-2019-ebike-range) or similar front hub motors. They are a bit heavier (motor = 1,7 kg) but they are very efficient, silent and a cheap if you can install them yourself. You can also create a battery pack for your specific needs using the latest battery technology keeping the weight low. Next gen cells can be found in the latest Tesla model 3 (This would however require a lot of DIY work and some knowledge in electronics). Most cheap Hub motor kits I have seen online look very ugly, use old heavy battery technology and the motor is often heavy since they are over engineered. I think a DIY build with a good hub motor is the only acceptable option for building a light folding bike. There are some good DIY kits available for example at (lunacycle.com/motors/conversion-kits/) but even more bad ones on ebay.

3. Mid drives are more complicated to install and in my opinion not worth the trouble when only adding 250W and going 25 km/h.

US citizens could go with a stronger motor but this also makes the bike heavier since a bigger battery is needed. Here my recommendations for US citizens.

1. The tuned add-e version (650W) is more powerful than the european version and probably the better option for the US market.

2. There are many powerful hub motors out there, but they are also heavier and need larger more powerful batteries. To keep the bike light, I would not use motors with to much power. 500W should be enough for the Helix.

3. A powerful DIY midrive might also be a good option since power can be better regulated especially in mountains and offroad. I think installing such a system is much harder than going with a hub motor but if you have the skills it might be the perfect system. Here are some inspirations: (electricbike.com/10-light-electric-bikes/)


For the suspension there are some inventions which might be interesting for the Helix bike as soon as they are available.

1. Loopwheel (inhabitat.com/loopwheels-reinvents-the-bike-wheel-with-a-suspension-system-built-into-the-rims/loopwheel-in-wheel-suspension-3) Those wheels are already available for wheelchairs. I am not sure if they would even work when installed in the front of the helix bike since they need some clearance to not hit the frame.

2. Bridgestone Air Free Concept (bridgestone.com/corporate/news/2017041701.html) still a concept and they might never come to market just like the Helix bike.


I personally dream of an ultralight 45km/h folding bike with a good suspension for a stable ride at high speeds. This would be the perfect medium to long range bike which works well in combination with public transport. Right now, my ultralight road bike fills that position and probably will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. The Helix definitely has the genes to become the perfect long range electric bike.

For near range and traveling by airplane the Helix bike is less ideal. I currently use skates which are fast enough to keep up with traffic and they pack incredibly small. However they have a few disadvantages like being a bit dangerous (no breaks, small wheels), some countries don’t allow skates on the bike path and they need almost perfect roads. The Helix and all the other folding bikes are to big and heavy to replace my skates but I think the upcoming Kwiggle bike (kwiggle.odoo.com/en_US/startseite) in combination with an add-e motor could be a game changer in the near range and international travel category.

This is my first post here and I would like to thank all the backers who invested their hard earned cash into such an innovative project. We all profit from helping more people switch from car to bicycle and public transport and the Helix can help make the transition a bit easier. In times of climate change and high obesity related healthcare costs such projects are needed.

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Old 01-07-19, 08:07 PM
  #1412  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
Anyone done. the maths? 1400 bikes on order, no production for 3 years, and only expenses for that period - not really so healthy for a new company, is it!
I strongly suspect that the plan is to start selling bikes once
the development period ends, & production begins.
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Old 01-07-19, 08:08 PM
  #1413  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
Consider this one. I like it better than Rubbee because you can't use rear racks or fenders with that. https://onemotor.co
Aye, that one looks possible too.
I've been watching them work to bring it to market.

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Old 01-07-19, 08:22 PM
  #1414  
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Electric drives do increase weight, but the Helix has the advantage of rolling when folded.
For suspension, I've been happy with the long travel Thudbuster which came with my Dahon Helios.
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Old 01-07-19, 10:43 PM
  #1415  
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Originally Posted by Revoltingest View Post
I strongly suspect that the plan is to start selling bikes once
the development period ends, & production begins.
Well, yes, naturally. I’m asking whether his backers will allow him to continue if the money runs out. Did he plan for a 3 year hiatus? Are there other loans? I’m not wishing him ill, far from it, but business is hard.

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Old 01-07-19, 10:47 PM
  #1416  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post

Well, yes, naturally. Iím asking whether his backers will allow him to continue if the money runs out. Did he plan for a 3 year hiatus? Are there other loans? Iím not wishing him ill, far from it, but business is hard.

I'm not sure I understand your comment about his backers allowing him to conitinue if the money runs out. Crowdfunding is a no-refund, no guarantee of any product process, so backers have zero control over what happens. Many projects go years beyond the projected date and some end up getting investors to try to complete the projects. But the backers can't force him to ship or stop development or anything else (unless you're talking about investment backers as opposed to crowdfunding backers like those discussed in this thread).
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Old 01-08-19, 01:04 AM
  #1417  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
I'm not sure I understand your comment about his backers allowing him to conitinue if the money runs out. Crowdfunding is a no-refund, no guarantee of any product process, so backers have zero control over what happens. Many projects go years beyond the projected date and some end up getting investors to try to complete the projects. But the backers can't force him to ship or stop development or anything else (unless you're talking about investment backers as opposed to crowdfunding backers like those discussed in this thread).
They can always sue him in private court. Force him to deliver or return the money. Of course there are terms and conditions of Kickstarter. But parts of them might be overturned by courts. Especially if backers try to argue he was fraudulently misrepresenting possible risks and the current state of development in his kickstarter campaign.

Even if he would win this in the end. If only a couple of backers want out it would be way cheaper for him just to return their money instead of taking the risk of a lawsuit and the cost of having to pay a lawyer.

PS: Just writing "no refund, no guarantee" does not always save you from legal actions. If you sell a "5 year old bike, no refund, no guarantee" and the buyer later finds out it is actually 10 years old, you're screwed and have to refund them!
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Old 01-08-19, 01:16 AM
  #1418  
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Checkout system

There has been an update. The checkout system is about to become available soon. One of my bikes now has a serial number
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Old 01-08-19, 09:39 AM
  #1419  
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Is 2019 finally the year of the Helix?


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Old 01-08-19, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by ladi View Post
They can always sue him in private court. Force him to deliver or return the money. Of course there are terms and conditions of Kickstarter. But parts of them might be overturned by courts. Especially if backers try to argue he was fraudulently misrepresenting possible risks and the current state of development in his kickstarter campaign.

Even if he would win this in the end. If only a couple of backers want out it would be way cheaper for him just to return their money instead of taking the risk of a lawsuit and the cost of having to pay a lawyer.

PS: Just writing "no refund, no guarantee" does not always save you from legal actions. If you sell a "5 year old bike, no refund, no guarantee" and the buyer later finds out it is actually 10 years old, you're screwed and have to refund them!
That hasn't worked out well for people trying to sue Kickstarter or Igg because they are not the actual "sellers", they are a middleman. But they are the ones with deep pockets. Suing the developer, assuming he has run out of money, is pointless. There would be no way to enforce any judgment since he would have insufficient assets. Furthermore, the language is clear in crowdfunding that you are backing "development" which may or may not lead to a product. The Helix has been "developed" so as regards the t&c he has fulfilled the conditions of "sale". People who backed Helix were NOT purchasing a product, they were funding an inventor's process of developing a concept. People have tried to sue and tried to get refunds and it generally does not work; if it did, it would undermine the entire concept of crowdfunding.
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Old 01-08-19, 10:37 AM
  #1421  
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Wow, I am SO excited for all you backers!!! Cannot wait to read reviews and see real life pics. I suspect you may beat the ShareRoller delivery now and I will lose my bet, but I'll still be happy for you all.
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Old 01-08-19, 02:44 PM
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Originally Posted by avole View Post

Well, yes, naturally. I’m asking whether his backers will allow him to continue if the money runs out. Did he plan for a 3 year hiatus? Are there other loans? I’m not wishing him ill, far from it, but business is hard.
I don't really have the option to stop him from continuing.

Btw, latest update is that the check-out system is done, & will be operating soon.
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Old 01-08-19, 06:29 PM
  #1423  
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Originally Posted by linberl View Post
That hasn't worked out well for people trying to sue Kickstarter or Igg because they are not the actual "sellers", they are a middleman. But they are the ones with deep pockets. Suing the developer, assuming he has run out of money, is pointless. There would be no way to enforce any judgment since he would have insufficient assets. ...
But the point about "allowing him to continue" does not apply if he runs out of funds anyway. Assuming he continues operating his business (maybe even sell bikes) but NOT deliver your reward, THEN you can obviously sue. (And thus force him to deliver, refund or declare bankruptcy.)
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Old 01-08-19, 06:57 PM
  #1424  
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Originally Posted by ladi View Post
But the point about "allowing him to continue" does not apply if he runs out of funds anyway. Assuming he continues operating his business (maybe even sell bikes) but NOT deliver your reward, THEN you can obviously sue. (And thus force him to deliver, refund or declare bankruptcy.)
Yes, and no. He can make sufficient material changes to his design that it would be very easy to make a case that it is not the same as the project bike; he can claim he abandoned that concept because he ran out of money. He could then take the concept to investors and come back with something else. Not saying he would do this at all....so far he seems pretty honorable. But crowdfunding developers HAVE done this and gotten away with it. Bottom line: if you back a crowdfunded project you should not expect to receive anything other than the warm fuzzy feelings of spurring development. I'm not aware of any devs that have sold their items outside of crowdfunding but not delivered to backers so that's a non-issue at this point. I would just encourage caution as our legal system is not going to do much to help in this situation without an incredible amount of legal fees which would be prohibitive for anything but a massive group (many thousands of backers).
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Old 01-09-19, 02:37 AM
  #1425  
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Checkout system

Still working on fixing a bug in the checkout system
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