Adding to others' thoughts on why the frame is a little heavy......

- Most bikes use folding joints where the hinges are part of the latch
mechanisms. The Helix frame hinges & latches are entirely separate.
So it's a couple more structural components.
- The handlebar stem hinge has extra meat to fold it farther off to one side.
- The rear triangle is really a cantilever beam, which is structurally
less efficient than a full triangle.
(On the plus side, greater flexibility should give a comfier ride.)
- Components are less spendy, & consequently heavier, than those
found on bikes like a $5000+ Burke.
- The stub axle on the front wheel will weigh more than one
supported at both ends.

I wonder if a future lighter Helix might exist alongside this model,
which could be the Clydesdale model.

This name could really stick! : )

How is that so ??

I certainly don't see that in the finished bike pict shown earlier in this thread.

On the front fork, the latching is accomplished within the upper & lower tubes.
The helical hinge is unloaded. It just happens to be near the latch.
On the rear triangle, the hinge is down by the bottom bracket, but the latch
is at the top of the triangle. (This helical hinge does carry a load though.)

Thinking of my Dahons' frame latch, the hinge & latch are combined into a
single mechanism. In addition to that, the Dahon hinge is much smaller
than the Helix hinge.

The rear hinge system is the same as how everybody else does it. Its compounded in complexity with the helical hinge extension in tandem with the fold hinge. I don't see how it is "separated " as being better that what everybody else does already.

The rear is indeed similar to bikes like Brompton, so the Helix only has
a relative weight penalty in the bigger size of its rear latch & rear hinge.
But it less compact folders like my Dahon Helios eliminate both, thereby
saving some weight.

I don't expect it to ever be the lightest folder, but it'll be the most compact
for that size wheel, & at a reasonable weight.

We discussed a lot weight, fold and folded size, a little ride and fit (because we know little about that) but if we look at what made the success of Brompton, we forgot practicality.

The Brompton with its front bag and front block mounted on the frame and not on the handlebar + rear rack is a champion in practicality, you can carry a lot of things, even heavy things easily and comfortably (the bike behavior is little influenced by the load in the front bag and the rider doesn't need to use a rucksack).

At this point (I know it should come later), Helix doesn't offer anything for somebody wanting to use it as commuter : no possibility to carry anything on the bike, no mudguarsd to keep the clothes clean, no serious lights (no possibility to mount a hub dynamo). I am afraid that it also doesn't address the main weakness of the Brompton: comfort on bad roads (cobbles for instance). Helix has no rear suspension, a probably very stiff lefty fork (original lefty forks are suspended), relatively narrow road tires (no space for balloon tires).. A titanium frame isn't enough to provide real comfort (BTW, I have also major doubts about the ride comfort of the Burke, I do not think that he accepts 50mm wide tires ?).

Good points Jipe. We have seen designs for a universal front mount (frame mounted as with Brompton), rear rack, mud guards and a few other essential items you would expect from a practicality point of view. Last we heard these were mooted to be availalable in the summer but it would be good to have them delivered with the bike.

A hub dynamo is definately not an option I guess. The Velogical Rim Dynamo is perhaps a viable alternative.

On comfort, I guess we'll have to wait for feedback from a Brompton owning backer who rides rough. Personally, i see the lack of suspension as a benefit for my commuting needs. London's roads are bad but don't need suspension and the lack of squish on climbing is welcome. I know you disagree but the larger wheel should have some benefit over the Brompton.

One key area you don't mention where the Brompton is very practical is the ease of folding/unfolding and the ability to just fold the rear triangle and have the bike stand by itself are real boons for bike-train-bike scenarios. I like to think the Helix will match this, though the front locking mechanisms do seem to require a good few turns.

The announced accessories are I think mandatory for a successful business with a folding bike which for most users is a utility bike.. Its I think a big part of the Brompton success together with the compact quick fold and good riding performances (for a utility bike).

Yes, I think the Velogical rim dynamo is the only possibility to have a powerful lighting.without the hassle of a battery system unless SON would make a specific Helix lefty hub dynamo (it exists for some trikes and for the Toxy ZR recumbent). With the Velogical rim dynamo, it is possible to have a powerful infinite lighting for about 150g.

I wonder if it is just the American market where battery operated lights are more common. I hardly ever see a bike here with a dynamo. Maybe it's the weight differential as the rechargeable lights weight next to nothing. I've helped the bike-to-work booth days a couple years and don't think I've seen one commuter with a dynamo, not even the Brommies that have rolled through. Now racks and fenders...yes. Is the Helix impossible to mount a standard rack, does it interfere with the fold? Same with fenders? I don't like it when a bike gets where it requires proprietary gear - one never knows how long a manufacturer is going to be around and the options are limited and more expensive usually. I know folks love the frame mounted Brommie bags but I have to say the couple times I've tried riding a Brommie with one, it was a pita in the wind!!! Like a sail blocking forward movement in a headwind; would much rather have the stuff behind my body in the wind or at least turned 90 degrees. It's great if it is not windy, though, and certainly mounts easily. I'm assuming trailers mount okay on the Helix, so the lovely folding Burley Travoy would be an option for big loads.

I think here in the UK is the same. Hub dynamos less common for commuting than they are for touring.

The challenges with accessories on Helix are that the tollerances are so tight for the fold and the mechanics of the fold. I have envisioned options for off the shelf fenders and racks but these are all downtube/seatpost mounted and less than optimal. The envisioned accessories seem cleverly designed to work with the fold but we have yet to see much of them in the flesh or understand pricing.

I've owned bikes with different kinds of dynamos. The hub ones are nice, but are spendy
& specific to one bike. The wheel rubbers don't work consistently in snow. But a good
battery operated light can be easily put on whichever bike I want. This makes them more
versatile, & cheaper. And these days, LED lights with LI batteries last long & charge easily.
I settled on the Magnus Innovation Vision 2 light because it fits every bike, & is also a
great flashlight (looks like one too) for general use.
https://www.bicycleadvisor.com/best-bicycle-lights/

Btw, I picked the Travoy to use with my Helix...when it arrives this coming summer.
Instead of mounting a bag on the front of the Helix, consider something like the
Xooter Crossrack mounted on the seatpost, which is certainly strong enuf.
https://www.xootr.com/add-crossrack-...e-scooter.html

I had a Xootr crossrack on my Bike Friday NWT. It was actually pretty versatile and worked well. But since lifting and carrying became a priority for me, I stopped using mounted racks and use a sling bag I wear or attach my Burley Travoy if I have a lot to carry. With my BF Pakit, I can even put the bike on the Travoy and roll it around, lol. I can ride with a fair amount of weight in a bag on my back and not notice it much, but I can't carry a lot of weight up stairs in my arms. For those who won't be carrying the Helix much, though, the cross rack is a great way to haul one pannier worth of stuff with zero wind penalty....Also you can switch it around and mount on the front of the bike as well (but it will rotate with the wheel).

Is there an upper end cut-off in Magnus, to prevent binding others? Given that the manufacturer talks about mounting the light rotated by 90deg, I presume that there is none.

I don't know about that feature.
But I aim mine as low as practical, looking for road features.
I don't think I'd blind anyone who isn't lying in the road.

Before we go down too far the road of the Helix can do this, or it cannot do that, we should reconsider why we even ride folding bikes in the first place. For me, it was the idea that I could have my cake and eat it too. "Instant" transportation to and from work, or when travelling. It's going to be all about compromises though.

I love my Brompton, but on anything other than asphalt or at least hardpacked gravel/dirt, the bike isn't going anywhere fast. I know there is a lot of concern about the Helix not being super light but frankly to make my Brompton usable with its rear rack and now loaded front bag, etc.... we're topping out at well over 30 pounds anyways. Heck my lunch alone usually weighs 5 lbs once you factor in the thermos and tea and glass microwavable dish! Given that I don't think the Helix can be made *much* lighter on a relative basis to other bikes, I'll pull a Grant Petersen and instead worry about losing a few pounds off of me and what I carry if I'm so concerned about weight when I bike.

As for the practicality of wheeling the Brompton around... meh... sort of. I had to change those awful little black wheels on the rack to roller blade wheels but after doing so, it didn't turn as well if I'm turning around a corner while pulling it. Plus the bike is easy to tip over when things get loaded down. Convenient for carrying and shopping? Absolutely. Perfect solution? Not even close - but it does the job. And mounting and unmounting a loaded Brompton bag is kind of of a pain when you need to fold and unfold the bike. First world problems indeed!

What caught my interest in fact about the whole Helix initiative is that they could squeeze a 24" wheel into a comparable folded frame like the Brompton: hey, I can squeeze more cake onto my plate! I would have paid someone back in the day to build a 20" wheeled Brompton. I would have gladly sacrificed a little bit of compactness and accepted a little more weight for a bike that would go almost everywhere more easily.

Well... we'll see what the first impressions of the early Helix adopters say.

One thing that caught my attention is that the fixed hight of the handle bar is relatively low for a transportation / commuter bike. I suppose you could change the bar for one with more rise.

Once you select your model of Brompton, the height is fixed too. I picked the M bar - works in most situations. Not perfect, but comfortable enough.

Sure, anyone can accept the weight and choose to enjoy the bike for other reasons. The problem is it was promoted as The New Most Fabulous Ever Lightweight Titanium Folder, and now it's just a nice folder. For those who are still into it and buy the bike it won't matter much, but it's an huge marketing hurdle IMO.

I ride H bar and it would better if the height was adjustable but the height is acceptable for me. Helix bar is about four inches lower than the Brompton H and two inches lower than a Brompton M. That is a lot lower.

WOW, that would be unrideable for me.

But probably perfect for short little me, lol. I wasn't comfortable with either Brompton bar, the "S" came closest.

Yes, you're right. I was there at the very beginning in 2015. A prototype was already built and there were videos of a guy wheeling it around. The 22 pound figure was quoted with a 12 speed. Titanium is lightweight and the Helix was supposed to revolutionize the folding bike segment. With a lightweight folder like the Helix you could take it for long rides and when you got tired you could carry it up and down the stairs and on the subway. It was perfect. Even though it sounds like I'm being a Debbie Downer, I'm not. Though I'm sighing a bit I still do believe in the longevity of the Helix project. I just think it's going to take longer to get the Helix to the point we all wanted it to be.

Fatter tyres will make a bigger difference than just wheel diameter differences on rougher roads.
Case in point would be BMX tyres (406x1.95") handling much better in gravel and rock chip surfaced roads than a 700x25c or a 700x28c.