Coldhands

Hi all,

Perhaps as a few of you know I've been researching folding bikes! I want to cycle Baja California. Most of this is tarmac but several quieter routes would be backtracks i.e. with stones, rocks, some sand. Cyclists who have done this route suggest a MTB with 2" tires. It appears you can fit 20x2 Big Apples to most of the Dahon line-up. I was thinking of some sort of suspension like a Thudbuster too. I know people use Bike Friday World Tourer and the Pocket Llama for off-roading stuff, but to my untrained eye I don't see the BF being any better at off-road given both would be using 20" wheels? The Dahon could handle this right? It's a Visc D18. Any tips, advice, suggestions welcome

fietsbob

I'd slow down On Gravel roads If I were You..

Azreal911

DEBCAR Story

tudorowen1

I think you will find a Bike Friday NWT will cope with just about everything ..The Dahon will fall to pieces..a chap toured West Africa on a Dahon a few years ago..African muddy ,rutted roads..aluminium handlepost broke..game over..
The Dahon bikes are strong..the hinges are not..

downtube

Thanks for reposting this link, I almost forgot about it.

Thanks,
Yan

Abu Mahendra

If Dahon, the Jetstream with a German A Kilo fork is what you want. Thorusa sells the complete front wheel with this fork.



this, however, may be the opportunity your been looking for to accoutre yourself with a bona fide expedition touring rig. Think Salsa, Surly with 29" wheels.

nz6666

Try a steel framed Dahon (p8) if I were you. The hinge is the weak link so better off with a steel frame. Most hinge related problem are from Alu frame Dahon that I have seen. BTW you can put on 55 mm (2 inch is 50mm) tyres. If you want to diy, you can change fork to suspension fork like the one used on Jetstream. The end product is a solid and fast piece of kit imho. But surely you don't ride that fast in any serious MTB track, wheel size is the major factor.

tudorowen1

But why would you want to ? If you must ride a 20inch folder offroad then use a Pocket Llama or NWT..

Coldhands

I don't know anymore - you guys are saying the Dahon will break but I heard of someone crossing Africa on a Vitesse with no major problems. As for Bike Friday - I just think if I'm going to spend so much money on a bike I might as well forget a folder and buy a Surly LHT and deal with the inconvenience of putting it on transport.

downtube

I would agree with everyone opinion that a Dahon would break. I like the Bike Friday or Surly options.

Thanks,
Yan

tds101 

Xootr Swift has also done major touring,...and has been used off-road with excellent results.

smallwheeler

the bike friday llama is not inferior to the surly. in fact, in terms of build quality, strength, durability, longevity and it's packabilty (in an airline legal suitcase in 5 minutes) it's probably superior in most applications:



ask heinz stücke...







he really beat the hell out of that bike lol.

ttakata73

If you plan to load it up with lots of gear the 26" mtb would be easier to pack stuff on, be cheaper, more reliable, and easier to get spare tubes and tires in remote places.

Clearly a BF can get the job done and it would be nice to have for other trips that are less overloaded.

smallwheeler

loading a llama is pretty easy, particularly if you're using panniers. also, due to it's much lower center of gravity, the llama actually becomes more stable under load.

reliability: i bought a pocket llama from a guy who had used it to travel the world extensively over the course of 20 years. it was one of the first llamas made by BF. i'm still riding it today.

tires and tubes: 406 tires and tubes are some of the most common on the planet, that being said, if you are not already traveling with extra tubes, then you deserve to walk. a hard lesson, but a good one.

cheapness: this is a always a relative factor when talking about bikes. for example, from my experience, a pocket llama that lasts indefinitely and has superior handling and ride characteristics is much cheaper than a similarly priced dahon bike that literally falls apart after 2-3 years of simple urban commuting. however, to really drill down on this idea of cheapness, the cheapest (and sometimes best) solution is not to buy an expensive travel/touring bike at all. but, rather just take your gear with you and buy a used bike at your destination. when you're done, or getting ready to fly to the next leg of your journey, sell the bike again and be own your way.

badmother

I think it is wrong to tell the OP he need a BF to do what he describes. I agree that a steel Dahon is safer than a alu one and he has to be careful not riding "hard" on the bumpy roads but I am sure most peopel would not like to do that for long..

he said: "Most of this is tarmac but several quieter routes would be backtracks i.e. with stones, rocks, some sand" and "Cyclists who have done this route suggest a MTB with 2" tires"

"Most peopel" who ride this path The mistymornings.net blog » Blog Archive » Bromptons on the Rallarvegen tell you you need a MTB with full suspension, fat tyres and lots of gears. These guys did it on Bromptons. It is just as easy to damage a bike in the city as it is in the bush if you do not understand you should not ride down long staircases and stuff.

To the OP: Small wheels are stronger than big wheels. Yo have to ride slower becouse the small wheels can get stuck easyer. Those two tells you a small wheeled bike can be a better choice than a regular tourer.

frame and handlepost are weak points. Look for steel frame and maybe a bike with a shorter stem if possible or a steel stem. Make sure your racks can take the beating. You are asking, that should tell us that you know you are stretching limits. Nobody in theyr right mind would beat theyr horse to death in the middle of nowhere, same with a bike.

if you do this trip you may do more trips and in the end want a better bike. If you do NOT do this trip yo may newer try later and that is a shame..

https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bi...de-folder.html

Keep us updated.

Abu Mahendra

I think you underestimate the likes of Surly LHT, Ogre, ECR which can put some serious rubber on the road, come stock with all types of drop outs and braze-ons, and have a veriable history of doing Africa, Latin America, etc. Plus a frame is less expensive than a BF. 20" wheels are great, but they are suboptimal for a lot of terrain. The range of rims, tires, racks, etc is infinitely greater for 26" wheel bikes. If you think piling on backpacks on the bike ala Heinz Stucke is the way to go, you obviously have not done off-road touring in scary unsealed roads. You (pl.) are so enthralled with the man and the BF that you forgot to ask critically whether really that is the better way to go. Piling on backpacks horizontlly like that? You have got to be kidding me. A clear example of the rampant confirmation bias here and the partiality-***-fanboyism to BF is that there was a clear example of a Dahon Jetstream being used off-road and punished to death. That was discarded and ignored, and then entered Heinz Stucke. Yeah, you guys are thinking clearly.

osco53

After reading the OP's Initial post I took my Dahon Speed P8 with It's 20 x 1.75 tires out for a little trail riding, Not much sand, just grass and some off camber hills, a few roots, very few rocky surfaces..

No thanks,, 20" wheels struggle when asked to get over things, contact patch is small....
Rear Derailleur was dangerously close to the ground and since I upgraded the crappy Dahon unit shifter and all with a Inexpensive great shifting Shimano set up I would not want to damage it.

No more off roading on my folder,,,

'Abu Mahendra's' advice on the Nicely equipped Surly was spot on

Amt0571

I've ridden some small stretches of easy offroad with my Mu P27 with no issues. However I wouldn't ride it offroad for long or on rocky/technical trails.

I think the frame is well engineered and I trust it enough to ride it regularly over 60km/h, but I don't think it would be able to cope with offroad riding for long. I'm also a mountain bike rider, and I know very well how much a bike suffers in rough terrain. My mountain bike requires probably 10x more maintenance per km than my road bike, and also way more than my Dahon. It eats chains and cassettes for breakfast and mostly everything wears down extremely fast, probably because sand mixed with grease/oil is just like a magnificient sandpaper all over the moving parts.

tds101 

I tried my Dahon Speed P8 and Speed i3 out my way, in sand and gravel. No way will I personally take them off the beaten path. It's fine with a bit of sand and such on the street, but go off road and it's definitely work. Not worth it for me personally. My TernJoeP24 is much better, but I use my 29'er for all the cRazY stuff. Especially with the fact there's no folding joint to destroy.

Can off road be done with a folding bike? Heck yes! Is it going to get expensive with repairs? Heck yes as well. A Dahon isn't really an off road bike. It can be used as such,...but no way will I recommend a Dahon for such adventures.

Now, maybe a Dahon jack,...

zebede

The Dahon Speed TR has a stout chrome molybendum steel alloy frame and came standard with Schwalbe big Apples. Unfortunately it is out of production. I am positive that Bike Friday could build you an optimal machine for your destination. If you all ready own the Visc 18, then put big apples on it and GO!

fourknees

Cool video. Thanks for sharing.

tds101 

I agree,... excellent watch!

SkunkWerX

Coldhands, at this point you got the VISC? Nice bike. Off road, I mean serious off-road, Baja? I am not so sure.

With Big Apples you can dial in a measured amount of comfort for gravel. I have done this.
I ride on gravel at minimum every Saturday.

I think the advice to try your Visc is good advice before you spend serious $$ on another bike.

For Baja??? I think you need something beyond the Visc, that's just my personal opinion.
But let's back up for a minute.

Take the Visc out on some country roads, dirt paths and gravel roads.
See how it feels to YOU. Adjust tire pressure to see how that plays into the overall scheme.
Then add Big Apples, if you choose, and do the same. Adding Big Apples (or Marathons, even) certainly is not a frivolous purchase and you will enjoy them.

I think it will be a bumpy ride, even on more local rural paths. Consider the saddle, and a possible replacement? Again, a better saddle is not a frivolous purchase, and you will enjoy it for years to come.

Incrementally try things to see how the Visc feels to you. It will serve as an education and you will be able to draw from the experience if/when you decide to build a world-touring rig.

If you already had reservations made, I would probably say contact Bike Friday, build a Llama to your best specs, and know you had something that would give you a good chance of enduring and enjoying the adventure. Since it seems like you have time and are still processing all of it....I suggest that you incrementally get into it, using the Visc, and see WHAT YOU THINK.

That's my two cents, and the best advice I can give you. It is how i would proceed since you already have purchased the Visc.

Let us know how it goes. Everyone can learn from this as you proceed.

Coldhands

This thread has progressed a lot since I last checked it - thanks all for taking the time to contribute and I will definitely keep you all updated. Unfortunately I'm in a sort decision paralysis now with so many options and so many variables to consider!

I'm jumping in at the deep-end and that's not wise as like several of you have said, it's best to try things out before biting the bullet with a big trip (and making an expensive purchase straight off the bat). My personal feelings are more towards the BF than the Dahon Visc - or - just buying something like a second-hand LHT or maybe a Ridgeback tour (the expedition version with the 26" wheels).

After a few hours of research it really seems like flying with a folding bike is no less hassle than a full-sized machine. I say this because taking a hard-shelled case is not really an option as this will be a through-cycle thus putting the folder in a carry bag seems as risky as just declaring it a bicycle and wrapping it up in a transparent bag. Both airlines I fly with don't charge extra for bicycles and so it wouldn't even save me any money.

I love the idea of the folder and the minimalism of it but maybe given the nature of the planned trip it would be worth putting up with the inconveniences of lugging around a full-sized bicycle. I will keep ye all updated!

Azreal911

Wow nice airline, for me I'm with the rigid non folding crowd with the big wheels on this one. There IS a big difference riding a 20" and 26" through rough terrain and you do "float" over stuff. I have more than enough folders tried in the past and I've tried them on light off road and gravel paths. Unfortunately NONE of them compares to my 20+ year old non folding mountain bike with just some 26 x 2.35 fat franks on there, not even serious off road tires. Even the guy with the Dahon jetstream article I linked he's back on a full sized mountain bike and from his own personal experience off roading with it he's slower (5% to 20% depending on roughness) vs the full sized bikes. if you are ok with this then test it out with the Visc P18 with fat tires. But be very careful with the Visc though, that bike looks like it's made with roadbike components and the derailleur is pretty low to the ground already.

Besides the airline how often do you think you would actually NEED the folding function? since you are going into Baja California it doesn't looks like you are going to be staying in hotels and stuff but really out in the wild and camping and motelling which I would just roll the entire bike in from the front door . And it doesn't look like you are going to be taking the train from one location to the other since it's more of a destination trip at the one location.

Also if this is like those once in a lifetime things that you would be doing, I'd say get the best equipment suited for the situation so you would actually enjoy your time even more! Baja Cali is like a MOUNTAIN BIKING mecca! not a folding bike area, it just seems like a compromise going for 20" when it's only easier to pack for the airplane ride that doesn't even charge you extra baggage. It's something I really wished to do back in the past but we were just poor university students and had enough mountainous areas right in our backyard (yeah school was out in the boonies for me).

Even the guy with the Dahon jetstream article I linked he's back on a full sized mountain bike and from his own personal experience off roading with it he's slower (5% to 20% depending on roughness) vs the full sized bikes. if you are ok with this then test it out with the Visc P18 with fat tires. But be very careful with the Visc though, that bike looks like it's made with roadbike components and the derailleur is pretty low to the ground already.