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Better gear ratio without changing the whole setup

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Better gear ratio without changing the whole setup

Old 02-20-24, 01:14 PM
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Ok guys, thank You all for help.
I thnik all is clear. I'm only now thinking if I should get a Tourney or Sora, since some say that due to lower quality of Tourney derailleur the chain has tendency to fall off.

Last edited by kayakkielbasa; 02-20-24 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 02-21-24, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by kayakkielbasa
Ok guys, thank You all for help.
I thnik all is clear. I'm only now thinking if I should get a Tourney or Sora, since some say that due to lower quality of Tourney derailleur the chain has tendency to fall off.
With my Tourney, chain has never fallen off the derailleur pulleys, but quite a number of times off the chainring, but that was also with previous Dahon compact derailleur as well. With short chainstay length, chainline (alignment of chainring to cogs) is critical. Thus, when at extremes (small ring/small cog, big ring/big cog), shifting fast to the other ring can sometimes drop the chain, but it also did that with a single chainring. The good news is that now that I have a double crank with front derailleur, putting the chain back on takes all of 1 second, just shifting the front derailleur to the opposite ring.

Buying better quality is never bad. I just don't know if any difference in chain drop.
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Old 02-21-24, 01:41 AM
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I just realised I didn't ask about one thing - should I upgrade the chain and if yes, how long it should be? How do I know what lenght I should upgrade to If let's say I'd go for 13-34T freewheel in the back, medium cage Tourney derailleur and the front chainring stays the same - 53T ?
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Old 02-21-24, 02:13 AM
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Originally Posted by kayakkielbasa
I just realised I didn't ask about one thing - should I upgrade the chain and if yes, how long it should be? How do I know what lenght I should upgrade to If let's say I'd go for 13-34T freewheel in the back, medium cage Tourney derailleur and the front chainring stays the same - 53T ?
You won't know if you need a longer chain until you try fitting the current chain. If you fit a new (unused) set of cogs, if the chain is at all old, use a new chain, they are cheap. Old "stretched" chains will wear cogs prematurely and may skip. You can check the old chain for stretch by laying on a table and matching up close to an english (inch) tape measure, the links are each 1/2" between pins. Pull chain tight and release, then tape 0 at one end and then look at the other end. By measuring the entire chain, (cumulative) wear will show up that end. There are specs online for what is acceptable and what should be replaced. If no english tape measure around, you can count the links and convert the proper length to metric.

Standard chain lengths (116? links) will be plenty, I had to remove 8(?) links I think. They normally advise, fit on big (or single) chainring and largest cog, pull tight, add two links. I went the other direction; I only shortened it enough to take up the chain slack on my (double) small/small combination. That way, I still have room to accommodate a 34T low cog, from my current 30T. Here are pics to illustrate:




Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-21-24 at 02:25 AM.
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Old 02-21-24, 02:27 AM
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If you go to 13-34 cogs, you may consider also going to 48t chainring. This will drop all gears by 10%, somewhere between 0.6-1.0 of a gear. And then you wouldn't need to change the chain length. You'll top out at 30kmph at 86rpm.
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Old 02-21-24, 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by tomtomtom123
If you go to 13-34 cogs, you may consider also going to 48t chainring. This will drop all gears by 10%, somewhere between 0.6-1.0 of a gear. And then you wouldn't need to change the chain length. You'll top out at 30kmph at 86rpm.
As I recall, he has a cheap swaged single crank, can't change the chainring without the whole crank.

That also may be revving a bit fast in cadence for our newbie.

I don't know about there (Poland), but in the USA, decent chains are cheap on amazon.
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Old 02-21-24, 03:36 AM
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If I ever need to replace the crank is this what I need? :
https://liteprobicycle.com/products/...35619724722334
That's a chainring and a crank. Or do I also need to replace the bottom bracket?
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Old 02-21-24, 11:35 PM
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Originally Posted by kayakkielbasa
If I ever need to replace the crank is this what I need? :
https://liteprobicycle.com/products/...35619724722334
That's a chainring and a crank. Or do I also need to replace the bottom bracket?
Funny you should ask. So that is a "square taper" crankset, it fits on a square-taper bottom bracket, which can be a "cartridge" (fast and easy change but more expensive), or individual parts (axle, bearing balls, bearing cups) which take a couple of hours to rebuild but are dirt cheap, new bearing balls are like $2 at the LBS. Both of the above require special tools to service, though less so with the cartridge (that's the big advantage of a cartridge, huge savings in labor time). The downside of a cartridge is that, once it starts to get any slack in the bearings, there is no way to tighten or rebuild it, just buy another.

NOTE: All square tapers are not the same, there is generally 2 standards, your bike made in Asia will probably be the most common, JIS, Japanese Industrial Standard. The other standard is ISO, International Standards Organization. Sheldonbrown.com has an article about this, in terms of compatibility between cranks and BB tapers (on that page, make sure you scroll down fully past the "spokes" between sections):

https://sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html

To judge whether square taper, or any "separate" bottom bracket needs service, you need to pull both crank arms and spin the axle with your fingers; The crank arms have too much leverage. In your fingers, you can immediately feel if it feels "gritty", not smooth. You can also try to wiggle the BB axle radially, see if you feel any slack. If it feels gritty or a lot of slack, replace.

Now, I have changed from square taper BB, to the "hollowtech II style", which has a hollow tube axle bonded to the right crank arm. The BB bearings do not go deep inside the BB frame shell, but are "external", fitting between the shell and the crank arms. I REALLY like this system; The ball bearings inside are larger or more of them, it feels smoother, and they are mounted closer to the crank arms, reducing bending moment on the tube and bearings. I can also take the crank completely off with only an allen wrench. The external bearings require a special wrench, I bought a 4-way one so am set for most styles of these. I opted for "ISO External" bearing standard, it is very common and not proprietary. One person on here, mountain biker, said he feels external bearings go bad quicker, and I said that may be true, due to a) larger seals, b) seal right against the crankarm, so dirt between could grind at seal, c) internal cartridge style BB, seals are further from the crank arms. But my external has worn better (street use only, dry only), and adjusting to remove slack in the bearings over time is a 2 minute operation, a big plus for someone like me that does a lot of mileage.

That crank you show, Litepro, is a great price. So if staying with square taper BB and single chainring, looks like a good deal. Now, that Litepro will not be as strong/bend resistant* if you bash the chainring (more common on folding bikes when folded). But it will be lighter, saving you carry weight.

* Sort of. Your current crank has a steel chainring, stronger than aluminum, however it's swaged to the right crank arm, very close in radius to the bottom bracket, thus not as well supported laterally as a crank "spider" (arms) supporting a chainring on bolts, much further out in radius. So the steel chainring will be stronger in terms of something like a concrete step, bashing on the teeth, in the direction of the teeth. However, the steel chainring may be easier to bend laterally as it is less well-supported, and I typically see more "runout" (lateral error) in swaged chainrings.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-22-24 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 02-22-24, 02:20 AM
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Thanks.
The crank on my bike is likely the same as here
Anyone can judge by watching this film if it is going to be compatibile with theLlitepro crank without changing the bottom bracket? This guy is replacing it but I still don't know whether it's necessary or he just wants to make an upgrade of this part.
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Old 02-22-24, 02:35 AM
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Originally Posted by kayakkielbasa
Thanks.
The crank on my bike is likely the same as here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY4FqACqe80
Anyone can judge by watching this film if it is going to be compatibile with theLlitepro crank without changing the bottom bracket? This guy is replacing it but I still don't know whether it's necessary or he just wants to make an upgrade of this part.
Again, please check my previous post and read the entire page on sheldonbrown.com, regarding bottom bracket square taper standards. Most probably, your Asian manufactured bike has a JIS taper, and probably Asian manufactured Litepro crank is JIS standard. But this is not certain. It would be best to just verify online if possible; I'm looking on the Litepro website but don't see any link yet for cranks so I can check this. However, I did notice that they are now selling "hollow chainring" (i.e., hollowtech II style) cranksets. If you need to also replace the bottom bracket due to wear, or if it's old style individual parts and you wanted to upgrade, you may want to buy this instead of a square taper crank and square taper bottom bracket, and then you don't even worry about what your current taper is (in other words, the crank below is both crankset AND bottom bracket bearings):

https://liteprobicycle.com/products/...ngle-chainring

You would not install this yourself, it sounds like you don't have sufficient experience, unless you are adventurous. But you would need the correct tools to remove the crankset, AND old bottom bracket (could be individual parts, or a cartridge), AND a special cup wrench to install the hollowtech II style bearings on each side. The good news is, once installed, it only takes loosening 2 allen bolts (same size) to remove the new crank, or adjust the bearings.

I'll post here if I find the taper standards for Litepro. EDIT: Nothing yet. That crank in the link above looks nice, but I can't find any chainline spec, my guess is should be 43.5mm for your bike, but that's just a guess.

Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-22-24 at 02:45 AM.
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Old 03-03-24, 10:26 AM
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S-A 3x9rear hub uncomplicated all this for me
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Old 03-04-24, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by bikebikebike
S-A 3x9rear hub uncomplicated all this for me
A good thought, but it violates the OP's premise of not changing the whole setup, to keep costs low. The one rear wheel on 3x9, plus two shifters, plus a suitable rear derailleur, would cost 2-3 times what he paid for the whole bike, and that's just parts cost, no labor. Also, his rear dropouts might not be wide enough for a 3x9.

About USD$170 bought me a 2X setup for my folder (parts cost, my own labor), not the range of a 3x9, but 400% which is adequate for me, about the lower 2/3 of touring bike range. In fact, on 406-44 tires, a 3x9 with 11-34, in the low(1) and mid(2) range on the IGH, provides nearly exactly the same range as my setup, I just don't have that high(3) range. Which I can live with, my high is enough to pedal down mild grades, above that I don't need. Plus the IGH adds even more weight to an already heavy bike, which I don't need, and additional maintenance.
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Old 03-04-24, 03:22 AM
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418%

This 418% range 1x setup costs $120.


​​​​​
  • RD: $42
  • 11-46T, 10-sp cogset: $23
  • Chain: $18
  • Crank: $26
  • Chainring: $11

And it's lighter and simpler than a 2x or IGH hybrid. I've done 2x, I've done IGH hybrid. I ain't never going back. Emancipate yourself from mechanical slavery.

Last edited by Ron Damon; 03-05-24 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 03-04-24, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch

https://liteprobicycle.com/products/...ngle-chainring

You would not install this yourself, it sounds like you don't have sufficient experience, unless you are adventurous. But you would need the correct tools to remove the crankset, AND old bottom bracket (could be individual parts, or a cartridge), AND a special cup wrench to install the hollowtech II style bearings on each side. The good news is, once installed, it only takes loosening 2 allen bolts (same size) to remove the new crank, or adjust the bearings.

I'll post here if I find the taper standards for Litepro. EDIT: Nothing yet. That crank in the link above looks nice, but I can't find any chainline spec, my guess is should be 43.5mm for your bike, but that's just a guess.

It's not rocket science it is only a bike. like everything it is about having the correct tools and for the rest, youtube is the best tutorial. The annoying things about bike is the multitude of "industry standards" leading to many similar tools doing the same job for different fitting so it is about planning and getting the tools machining your bits (for example, I was looking into a new gravel race frameset, I was pretty set on purchasing it and stop at the last minute when I realized it had BB30 bottom bracket fitting rather than BSA).

I started to mess about with bikes in 2018, not riding or servicing, I mean put apart disregarded bikes and recycle/upgrade them on the cheap. Within less than a year, I was building bike from bare frame; it is simple... well unless you go BMX which uses very different standards.
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Old 03-04-24, 03:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz
It's not rocket science it is only a bike. like everything it is about having the correct tools and for the rest, youtube is the best tutorial. The annoying things about bike is the multitude of "industry standards" leading to many similar tools doing the same job for different fitting so it is about planning and getting the tools machining your bits (for example, I was looking into a new gravel race frameset, I was pretty set on purchasing it and stop at the last minute when I realized it had BB30 bottom bracket fitting rather than BSA).

I started to mess about with bikes in 2018, not riding or servicing, I mean put apart disregarded bikes and recycle/upgrade them on the cheap. Within less than a year, I was building bike from bare frame; it is simple... well unless you go BMX which uses very different standards.
Oh I know, I'm all self-taught. But evidently I have a mind for it because I became a mechanical engineer. But from the OP's comments on this thread and earlier ones, I grasp that he's a novice, so I didn't want to make assumptions that something I am quite experienced at doing, he could do. Bottom bracket service is one of the more difficult things to do, plus you're dealing with right- and left-hand threads, but can be learned, however it also requires a bunch of tools; tapered-crank remover, old-style bottom bracket wrenches for the lockring and cups, and either wrenches for an internal cartridge, or (as indicated by the parts) a new cup wrench for the external BB bearings. For the latter, I bought a 4-way wrench, to plan for the future, though I hope to stay with ISO External standard because it's the most common I think.
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Old 03-04-24, 09:28 PM
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Great discussion here.
I have 20" and 16" cumbies and foldies with the same issue. Even cumbie/foldies and have played with everything from Rohlof/Sclumpf and Nuvinci on "down".
The above prices are incredible and I get the OP's skills and goals.
Small wheel bikes overflow with compromises, and it's good to see what answers are out there.
In my applications the FD and long throw RD add fragility that conflict with portability, at the cost of limited gear choices w/ IGH .
But hey there is a place in the world for the unholy Macarena that is the Brompton shifting, too.
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