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-   -   Folding “gravel” bikes (https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/1300718-folding-igraveln-bikes.html)

Duragrouch 10-04-24 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23364042)
Thanks for running this down. I was flummoxed before this on how he was disconnecting the fork. Has anyone seen this solution before?

I have not. The design has a lot of added things to facilitate a perfect locked-together fold, things that are not used once unfolded. The following statement in the text is telling:

For me has been 100% reliable on all versions of this bike for decades now.
So this sounds to be quite an extended development process, and perhaps also an explanation of why he didn't go with a currently manufactured folder. Very notable on his design is that both wheels stay nested in their respective forks, that's a big plus for a dense fold. Even though a Bike Friday meets checked-bag size limits like this one (and I think they are within an inch of each other in total girth), the BF is all loose parts, you would never transport it outside of a bag or case. This bike is totally locked together in a dense package, designed to be transported with a bare minimum of covering, so no need to stash a suitcase somewhere or worry about a non-loop trip, nor need to fabricate a cardboard box for each flight.

One of my old boss's boss, looking at a new design of mine: "This took some thought."

Schwinnsta 10-04-24 07:21 PM


Originally Posted by Duragrouch (Post 23364317)
I have not. The design has a lot of added things to facilitate a perfect locked-together fold, things that are not used once unfolded. The following statement in the text is telling:

The connection of the fork to the steerer, apart from folding attachments is new to me. It is neither threaded nor threadless, the principal means of attaching forks.

Duragrouch 10-04-24 07:51 PM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23364343)
The connection of the fork to the steerer, apart from folding attachments is new to me. It is neither threaded nor threadless, the principal means of attaching forks.

Oh, I didn't catch that. I thought you meant the tube sticking out sideways from the fork crown, to join with the frame when folded. There's a ton of info to grok there. I only saw the fork and wheel assembly, being disconnected as a unit from the frame, behind the head tube (IIRC).

Schwinnsta 10-04-24 08:15 PM


Originally Posted by Duragrouch (Post 23364364)
Oh, I didn't catch that. I thought you meant the tube sticking out sideways from the fork crown, to join with the frame when folded. There's a ton of info to grok there. I only saw the fork and wheel assembly, being disconnected as a unit from the frame, behind the head tube (IIRC).

His fork crown has a split in the middle of one side to clamp it on and off the steerer. His derailleur faces the middle, but his chain is loose with no take up. At least the derailleur is safe.

Duragrouch 10-04-24 08:26 PM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23364381)
His fork crown has a split in the middle of one side to clamp it on and off the steerer. His derailleur faces the middle, but his chain is loose with no take up. At least the derailleur is safe.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7bkJwwajCY

Oh, I did see that feature, but thought it was just to make a homemade joint there, not pulled apart all the time. IIRC, I think Birdy forks are like that, and require or recommend periodic replacement of the steer tube.

bfuser5893539 10-04-24 09:34 PM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23363599)
This was an interesting design and is an interesting read. It would be equally at home placed in this thread or the touring one. I must admit I don't quite understand how the fold is done. It seems more collapsible than folding, but he says only 4 minutes and the bike becomes it own case. It is a one of and not commercial.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...575607aec5.png

Dude, that's some ultra Fred Mad Max style bike...
Down to the friction thumb shifter...
Perfection

Duragrouch 10-04-24 09:55 PM


Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse (Post 23364439)
Dude, that's some ultra Fred Mad Max style bike...
Down to the friction thumb shifter...
Perfection

That's actually a steampunk valve.

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...29a8719b1d.jpg

pinholecam 10-04-24 10:49 PM

Setup I used for the Alps to Ocean Trail in New Zealand (2018).
300+km of gravel on a fully loaded bike.
Sleeping gear, tent, cooking items, camera gear.

Tyrell IVE 18" with 1.65" tires which is the max it can take.
Certainly doable, but its also the route that convinced me that a larger wheeled bike is preferable in the future.
Suspension seatpost and stem helps too and any folding bike that can have them will add much more traction and comfort.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...72036e53ab.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf7356c039.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1e8a0f767a.jpg

Jipe 10-05-24 12:26 AM


Originally Posted by pinholecam (Post 23364463)
Setup I used for the Alps to Ocean Trail in New Zealand (2018).
300+km of gravel on a fully loaded bike.
Sleeping gear, tent, cooking items, camera gear.

Tyrell IVE 18" with 1.65" tires which is the max it can take.
Certainly doable, but its also the route that convinced me that a larger wheeled bike is preferable in the future.
Suspension seatpost and stem helps too and any folding bike that can have them will add much more traction and comfort.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...72036e53ab.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf7356c039.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1e8a0f767a.jpg

Boxbike Berlin sell a Tyrell Ive Explore with wider Billy Bonkers 2"x18"/50x355 and fenders, is it a different frame+fork than yours?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...191f7b7854.jpg


pinholecam 10-05-24 02:51 AM


Originally Posted by Jipe (Post 23364482)
Boxbike Berlin sell a Tyrell Ive Explore with wider Billy Bonkers 2"x18"/50x355 and fenders, is it a different frame+fork than yours?
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...191f7b7854.jpg


It has to be if it can take 2" and still have the fenders.

On my model, it was 1.65" max with fenders and 1.75" max without.
Mine was the first model (bought it when they launched here in SGP), I know they later came out with a 'faster' oriented one but I don't know about this 2" tire version.
The model you posted has a different handlebar post design for sure.
Good to see Tyrell come out with such a model.

pinholecam 10-05-24 02:59 AM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23363599)
This was an interesting design and is an interesting read. It would be equally at home placed in this thread or the touring one. I must admit I don't quite understand how the fold is done. It seems more collapsible than folding, but he says only 4 minutes and the bike becomes it own case. It is a one of and not commercial.
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...575607aec5.png


Good to see someone think and do something different. (rather than be boxed in by norms of what a folding/packing bike should be)
I hope he finds success if he's selling it.

That said, its not expensive to get Waltly (or your Ti maker of choice) to do up a say 20" Ritchey Breakaway / S&S system bike and also design up a holder for the 2 parts of the frame when separated. (USD1.1K thereabouts )
Not going to be as 'clean' a package when packed up, but certainly not too far from it too.
I played with this idea of a 24"/26" breakaway bike with such a holder, but in the end chickened out and went for a 700c/650b option (will share the build when its ready)

Jipe 10-05-24 03:25 AM


Originally Posted by pinholecam (Post 23364491)
It has to be if it can take 2" and still have the fenders.

On my model, it was 1.65" max with fenders and 1.75" max without.
Mine was the first model (bought it when they launched here in SGP), I know they later came out with a 'faster' oriented one but I don't know about this 2" tire version.
The model you posted has a different handlebar post design for sure.
Good to see Tyrell come out with such a model.

This handlebar that increase the reach was made for taller people which is useful to sell the bike in Germany.

But I never heard of a new frame to allow wider tires.

ChiapasFixed 10-05-24 08:07 AM


Originally Posted by john m flores (Post 23363825)

Cool concept, and he seems to have made it work for him. Although I must say, a very similar bike already exists in mass production and I actually own one:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7cc1b922e.jpeg
The Origami Swift folds/ disassembles in a very similar, maybe slightly better, way. The current seller, Paul Ingis who is on this forum, has promised an upcoming version with a slightly offset folding rear and a folding steer tube. Improvements which would definitely make this a contender for a highly capable, compact “gravel” folder.
(Ron D, we know you don’t like him 👍)

Jipe 10-05-24 09:56 AM

It could indeed be a competitor for the All-Packa if it accepts as wide tires (the All-Packa goes up to 2.4" with fenders, 2.8" without fenders) and, seen the picture, I doubt it can (the tires on the pictures seems the max acceptable width and are 20"x1.75").

It doesn't fold really small, but its also the case of the All-Packa.

john m flores 10-05-24 10:17 AM


Originally Posted by Duragrouch (Post 23364317)
Even though a Bike Friday meets checked-bag size limits like this one (and I think they are within an inch of each other in total girth), the BF is all loose parts, you would never transport it outside of a bag or case.

Minor point of clarification - If you quick fold the rear of a Bike Friday (seat mast down and rear wheel and triangle folded beneath the main triangle) you can then reach over the bike, grab an outward facing stay (seat or chain) and pick up the bike. This is useful in short, multimodal situations but as with other folded bikes (Brommies excluded), negotiating narrow train passageways requires a little finesse.

I think someone sells a Rinko style bag - I may get one.


​​​​​This bike is totally locked together in a dense package, designed to be transported with a bare minimum of covering, so no need to stash a suitcase somewhere or worry about a non-loop trip, nor need to fabricate a cardboard box for each flight.
That video of the designer standing on the package is really impressive.


One of my old boss's boss, looking at a new design of mine: "This took some thought."
What kind of stuff did you design? I have a major in Structures. Unfortunately, never used it.

ChiapasFixed 10-05-24 02:03 PM


Originally Posted by Jipe (Post 23364703)
It could indeed be a competitor for the All-Packa if it accepts as wide tires (the All-Packa goes up to 2.4" with fenders, 2.8" without fenders) and, seen the picture, I doubt it can (the tires on the pictures seems the max acceptable width and are 20"x1.75").

It doesn't fold really small, but its also the case of the All-Packa.

The tires pictured are 20x1.95”, but are functionally wider that the 2” big apples I had on there previously. In any case 2” is probably the widest tire that will fit with fenders (maybe 2.1”), which is great for dirt road touring.

It’s true the current folded size is not particly small and requires removal of the front wheel. If you break apart the rear triangle you have a suitcase fit. But IF Origami does implement the changes I mentioned above, then it will be a real contender.

Jipe 10-06-24 12:19 AM

Is it your bike? The widest Arisun XLR8 I found on the net are 1.75"x20".

seat_boy 10-06-24 04:26 AM

Hopefully he also makes the Swift a bit longer. I enjoyed my Swift, but it was too short (hint hint...)

ChiapasFixed 10-06-24 10:35 AM


Originally Posted by Jipe (Post 23365239)
Is it your bike? The widest Arisun XLR8 I found on the net are 1.75"x20".

yes, that’s my Swift. The Airsun tires came stock. I put BAs on there for a bit before switching them back to my Storm for touring, so can certify the Airsun are in fact a couple mms wider than the 50mm BAs.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19d078f46.jpeg
20x1.95 Airsuns on the Origami Swift. Functionally about 52mm


ChiapasFixed 10-06-24 11:07 AM

So it would seem the contenders for capable “gravel” folders are currently as follows:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9fdcf07b3.jpeg
Dahon Speed family - including Tern, FnHon versions and related models. Very capable, great luggage capacity, reasonably priced. Main challenges are large and cumbersome fold (maybe not an issue for some applications), and availability as these models are not always easy to find depends on location


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb62c7c17.jpeg
Bike Friday All Packa. Very capable ride, many drivetrain options. Not designed for racks but can bikepack a fair amount. Main challenges are the exhorbitant price tag and the very cumbersome fold, with loose bits and nothing staying together. Weight may also be an issue for some.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6df5bcc8b.jpeg
Origami Swift. Very capable ride with plenty of luggage capabilities (front and rear racks possible). Easily available global shipping at an accessible price. Can be fitted with essentially any drivetrain. Main challenge is the cumbersome fold, with loose bits flopping around and the need for fairly extensive disassembly to achieve a compact enough fold for air travel.


https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...8201efb9c.jpeg
MTB Brompton. A retrofit by Kinetics, who build rear triangles and forks to convert Bromptons to 18 or 20 tires and disc brakes. Very capable riders, can be fitted with any drivetrain. Carrying capacity same as a regular Brompton. Fold virtually as small as a stock Brompton which means very versatile and easy for multi modal travel. Main challenges are the very high price tag once you add the cost of a stick Brompton and then the very high coat of the custom frame parts, and all new parts.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7dcf80ae1.jpeg
Brompton G line. Similar to the Kinetics frankenbike with the kinks worked out. This looks to me like the best overall pick for now. Challenges are the very high price tag, availability (March 2025?), and the fact that it is untested aside from Brompton’s in-house tests. Also the 140mm rotors seem a point of concern for me but not hard to fix.

I did not include Birdy here, simply because I do t know enough about this very rare and hard to get bike. Any others?

Schwinnsta 10-06-24 11:26 AM


Originally Posted by ChiapasFixed (Post 23364613)
Cool concept, and he seems to have made it work for him. Although I must say, a very similar bike already exists in mass production and I actually own one:

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7cc1b922e.jpeg
The Origami Swift folds/ disassembles in a very similar, maybe slightly better, way. The current seller, Paul Ingis who is on this forum, has promised an upcoming version with a slightly offset folding rear and a folding steer tube. Improvements which would definitely make this a contender for a highly capable, compact “gravel” folder.

An offset folding rear could help, I think if he hinged the stem tube like Dahons it would introduce flex. If by steer tube being hinged, you mean a folding front fork, that would certainly save space. Just allowing the front fork to be quickly detached and connected would be an improvement regarding assembly / disassembly for suitcase packing. Detaching a threaded steerer at the head tube with large nuts just makes it slow. Doable but slow.

Jipe 10-06-24 11:30 AM

I think that the All-Packa has the same front and rear rack capabilities as the new All-Day:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19aa7a6480.jpg

For the Birdy, I think that if you can buy it from the online store of Pacific Cycles. There is also a Birdy clone from Mint


ChiapasFixed 10-06-24 01:13 PM


Originally Posted by Schwinnsta (Post 23365489)
An offset folding rear could help, I think if he hinged the stem tube like Dahons it would introduce flex. If by steer tube being hinged, you mean a folding front fork, that would certainly save space. Just allowing the front fork to be quickly detached and connected would be an improvement regarding assembly / disassembly for suitcase packing. Detaching a threaded steerer at the head tube with large nuts just makes it slow. Doable but slow.

No, I meant a foldable stem like Dahon or maybe more like Brompton. At least that’s what I understood was in the works. An offset fold in the rear triangle would mean the tires could be almost parallel when folded. That and the folding stem could make for a very thin and manageable package.

john m flores 10-06-24 01:18 PM


Originally Posted by Jipe (Post 23365493)
I think that the All-Packa has the same front and rear rack capabilities as the new All-Day:


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...19aa7a6480.jpg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...04d90a4ee4.jpg

Correct. The All-Packa can handle front and rear racks. Also, the forks have 3-pack mounts, the top tube had a 4-pack mount, the underside of the downtube has a 3-pack mount, and the back of the seatmast has a 3-pack mount.

Jipe 10-06-24 03:13 PM

This orange All-Day is a kind of test bike, it doesn't reflect exactly what the commercialized All-Day will have..

Bike Friday made a second one, a grey one with an Alfine IGH and a belt drive which I think has the same fork as the All-Packa with 3 mounting points on its downtube
https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d9d6387436.jpg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7adddc9d0c.jpg

About the availability of the Brompton G-line: in Europe its immediately available, I know one person who bought one from a Brompton dealer.


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