That sounds good.

Haven't rode one, but from the pics, the parallel seatpost and handlepost I'm sure contributes to the short feeling; A handlepost canted forward of the steer tube, close to vertical like on Dahons, would help that. Plus, if both adjustable for height, the reach increases proportionally as both go up.

Every Dahon handlepost of at least Speed/Mariner quality and up, the handlepost is very rigid low at the hinge, and the one piece ones are rigid all the way up; It's the telescoping height adjustable ones that introduce some flex at that joint.

Caveat: My early steel one-piece handlepost, has a hinge with over-center clamp like the frame. After many years, it's loosened up just a tad, and I don't see a way to remove and replace the hinge pin. But I just folded the post, at the juncture surface of the lower hinge halves I put one layer of soda can aluminum, unfolded the post to upright and locked, and cut away the excess flush with a knife, that aluminum cuts easy with knife or scissors without damage. That tightened the hinge up perfectly. If it loosens more I'll use more layers of aluminum shim.

The later handlepost hinges on aluminum posts, are not held locked with an overcenter clamp, but instead is a lateral/radial wedge system to lock it together, much easier to operate, and able to adjust out slack.

One thing to add - if the type of gravel that one will do is gravel paths, rail trails, and the like, then you don't need to go wider than 2". Last year, we rode some farm roads in Spain on 1.75" tires.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37c2840998.png

This is a used Bike Friday Crusoe with 1.75" tires. The other bike was an All Packa with 2.4" tires. The Crusoe went everywhere the All Packa went with just a little more consideration for line choice.

​​​​​​So if milder gravel and 1.75" tires are sufficient, that opens up a number of more affordable used Bike Fridays - New World Tourist, the Crusoe, and other variants with v-brakes. Used, these bikes can be purchased for a fraction of the cost of an All Packa. The bulky quick fold is still there - these are not multi-modal bikes - but they have the mounts and wheelbase for touring.

I agree on all. There's some particularly good deals on craigslist right now. I don't know how the rear-wheelbase compares to a Dahon, but on the latter, it's pannier capable with a rack that puts the panniers behind the rear axle, with a large-wheel-height rack if hauling full-size panniers. It's that aft position that narrows rack selection, but they're available if one looks. If you're doing serious off-pavement climbing, you may need more load up front, like you show on your ride.

There's a BF for sale a state away (in BF's hometown, quite common, I'm guessing because every employee gets to build their own bike), a Pocket Tourist, good price, but interestingly, it appears to not have Bike Friday's trademark fold-forward seat tube, it looks like that comes out to fold loose like the handlepost.

I just measured my BF Crusoe vs. my Zizzo Liberte. The Crusoe's wheelbase is ~1" longer, and most of that added length appears to be in the rear triangle; the bottom bracket to the rear wheel rim is 1" more on the Crusoe.

Bike Friday has produced a dizzying array of bikes over the years. I think the earliest models didn't have seat stays, just chain stays.

Without a folding seat mast, the Pocket Tourist may have been a lighter/more budget option.

I think they call this the "easy pack" option or something. It goes into the suitcase a bit easier than the folding seat post version.

My Crusoe is like this, it's annoying for how I use it (never with a suitcase, just throwing it in my car trunk).

BFs are sized, though, since it will vary based on which sample you measure. I have the biggest size they normally sell, here's how the wheelbase and front center compare:

- Zizzo Liberte: 975mm (580mm front center)

- Bike Friday Crusoe (62cm): 1100mm (668mm front center)

There's one of those sans-seatstay models for sale right in BF's hometown, cheap, says "vintage", serial number A001, I'd be surprised if it was the very first Bike Friday, it could just be a personal employee made and used bike.

Can you post a picture of this bike?

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a16878f1cc.jpg

OOO, just noticed, (I think) the rear triangle pivots in front of the BB, so chain shouldn't go slack when folded like current designs with pivot aft of the BB. It also means that chain tension forces don't get transmitted through the pivot, like current designs.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4fcdb52878.jpg

From the pictures, it seems that, like on the Moulton (excepted the AM with ETRTO369 wheels), the bottom bracket box is part of the rear triangle and not part of the main frame like for instance on the Brompton (and AM Moulton and Birdy and many other Bike Friday).

This means a constant distance between bottom bracket and rear wheel axle (possibility to use a belt drive without tensionner), no influence of pedaling force on a rear suspension if any and a shorter folded length.

The new All-Day is made the same with the rear triangle pivot in front of the mid motor which is mounted into the rear triangle. Bike Friday propose a belt drive version of the All-Day. The All-day should be shorter folded than the All-Packa (I evaluated its folded size with the 50x406 Billy Bonkers to about 710x730mm).

Exactly. I don't know if the above bike was early and they got away from this design, or a later experiment, or just the idea of a worker that was building their own bike. It has nothing to do with the lack of full-length seatstays, that's a completely independent decision.

Anyway, they went back to this design with the All-Day announcing also an eccentric to adjust the belt tension:

Besides belt tension, my guess may have been motivation to not send the higher chain tension from motor drive, through the rear triangle pivot bolt.

Come to think of it, I've seen previous BFs called the Silk* with belt drive, and looking online now I see some with same rear triangle design, I hadn't realized the pivot changed.

* IIRC, not to be confused with an earlier BF model called the Silk Road(? I could be wrong) that had a cantilever seatpost into a tube coming from the head tube).

It'll be interesting to see if that design percolates into the other BF designs over time, and with or without mono-chainstays.

Its true that this All-Day is as far as I know, the first folding bike combining a folding rear triangle and a mid motor.

All other folding ebike I know are either mid motor but bi-fold or have a rear folding triangle but a front hub or rear hub motor.

I think you're right. And that mid-drive motor really cuts weight versus hub-drive, being able to use the bike gearing, motor size is based on max torque required.

What type (mech., hydro or mech/hydro) and brand disc brakes and rotors size does the BF Allpacka come with?

From several pictures of the All-Packa, its mechanical Zoom (a brand usually mounted on Chinese electric scooters, but these electric scooters have hydraulic Zoom), according to a review of the All-Packa, DB680

The pictures of the All-Day show also mechanical Zoom.

I have Zoom XTech HB100 dual piston hybrid brakes clamping 160mm disks on my 2023 All Packa

I saw a very early All-Packa locally, and the owner had chosen cable-actuated hydraulic calipers, first I'd seen that. It appeared the piston worked in-line with the cable. BF often offers set choices on components, but I think you can get stuff outside of that if desired. I'd go full hydraulic, as long as I could do maintenance and repair myself.

This test of the All-Packa mention Zoom DB-680. this link comes from the Bike Friday All-Packa webpage.

But some pictures of All-Packa on the Bike Friday website show All-Packa with HB100 !?

There is no choice of brake caliper on the website, only a choice between several components packages with different transmissions without a clear list of the components of each package.

Now the huge price difference between the high end transmissions (SRAM Rival AXS and Rohloff, +3500USD and +4900USD) and lower end ones cannot come only from the transmission, most other components must also be upgraded.

It seems that for any reason, Bike Friday doesn't mount Shimano components which is a pity.

I was thinking the same thing. A set of Shimano Deore M6100 hydraulic calipers & hoses, and a pair of SLX rotors is all of $100 retail.

According to Bike Friday, they have difficulties to source Shimano components because they are located in the US and are a small company with a low volume of purchase.