My wife and I have been testing out folders for a few months. For our tastes, the portability of the Brompton/Merc folders along with its decent ride is trumping a lot of other folders. However there are still a few issues where a few opinions and advice would be helpful.

The first, of course, is the whole Brompton versus Merc debate. I read a series of threads on the issue--I simply searched "Brompton vs Merc" and spent an hour or two in front of the computer--and saw the favorable Merc reviews. I am strongly leaning towards the Merc but it appears that the version offered now is similar to the M-type 3 speed Brompton instead of the version Waveshrdr reviewed earlier. But more on this later ...

We have only ridden 2 and 3 speed Bromptons. While Washington DC is not as hilly as Denver or San Francisco, it still has a considerable amount of variation and we would take the bikes on trips. So getting a wider gear range is an important issue. But the 6 speed increases the range marginally. I searched the YAHOO Bromtontalk group for additional solutions. I found the following:

1) Add a front derailer -- YAHOO message #27131 plus many more

2) Add an internal geared crank -- Schlumph Mountain Drive

3) Change the rear sprockets on the 6 speed -- YAHOO message #28250

Approximate prices for 1) and 2) can be found at https://www.foldabikes.com/PriceListHTML/plSection.php?1 . As one can see, the Mountain Drive is pretty expensive; but the front derailer option looks reasonable. The individual with the 12/18 sprockets on the 6 speed was unable to get the rear derailer to work smoothly. Although a smaller spread (while still wider than the original 13/15) would probably work better.

One question I have is whether the derailer clamp can be used with the aluminum Merc. Anecdotally, it appears that most aluminum bikes have braze-on derailers. I always wondered--but not enough to actually discover the answer--whether the lack of clamps was due to the material or oversized seat tubes.

Another issue is that the ergonomics on the Brompton are a little squished for me. I would want to be able to extend the reach a bit and perhaps have a little flexibility with bar height. There is an interesting modification (see YAHOO message #19220) where a quill stem replaces a suspension handlebar post. I was wondering whether the suspension handlebar post that WAVESHRDR discussed in an earlier thread has that ability. The seat can be moved back a bit either by rotating the saddle adapter pin or with the aftermarket post linked below. Does anyone have any experience with the post or general comments on altering the Brompton/Merc fit?

https://www.calhouncycle.com/productc...&idproduct=873

There was a considerable amount of discussion on the weight of the Brompton versus the Merc. From what I gather the conclusion is that the overall weight of the bikes are similar except that the Merc has a lighter aluminum frame but the Brompton has a lighter rear triangle/fork (the Brompton and Merc forks are cro-mo and hi-ten steel, respectively). Assuming that this is true, is it possible to purchase just the rear triangle/fork from a Brompton dealer? Have I characterized their relative weights correctly? From this can I infer that the Brompton with the titanium forks and rear triangle is lighter than the Merc.

Lastly, how has the Merc been holding up with respect to reliability?

Thanks for reading

-G

adj_stem1.jpg

adj_stem2.jpg

P.S. I decided to start a new thread since the date on "Bringing Merc to the USA" is failing to update. More generally, I thought that the thread's title was no longer appropriate.

OK, where to start. IF you want the lightest version possible go with the Merc and buy the Ti bits from Brompton. I have a set of them. If you want a basic Merc but you want the rear triangle, I have one of those with a Brompton SA hub too.

What doesn’t show up exactly correct is that the Merc weighs more than a Brompton even with the Merc’s lighter frame because it has more accessories on it. It has a kickstand too that isn’t exactly lightweight. However said kickstand allows you to actually use the rear rack instead of folding it under the bike to act as a kickstand. The Merc also has a dynamo and a light too.

The front derailleur mount on my Merc is a clamp on and works fine. Don’t forget that the Merc also comes with the luggage carrier bracket and bag. An expensive upgrade on the Brompton.

As you have noticed the 6spd doesn’t gain you too much with respect to gearing range. I wouldn’t go with a Schlump Mtn. drive up front. I’d gear the front shorter and go with a speed drive or high speed Schlumpf drive. It makes more sense.

As for reach my Merc is more comfy than my Brompton was. Don’t forget you can slide the seat back in its mount too to extend your reach if necessary. I am not a small guy and I can get comfy on either bike. FYI I may be selling my Merc6. Not because I don’t love it (as I do) but I am looking at building one from scratch with a frame I will be getting from Merc. Mine has the amazingly upgraded brakes too.

One other major (for me) plus the Merc has over the B is I like the twist-grip shifter vs. the thumb ones on the B. Much more intuitive. One thing that is nice that the Merc has is the little clip to keep the rear from falling under the bike when you pick it up. This is a nice touch too. You could of course add it to a B and if I owned one I’d definitely do it.

I've put 430 logged miles on my Merc now since I bought it in mid April, and I've found it pretty sound. I needed to true the back wheel after I took it touring on rough roads with a heavy load (I was camping), and I found the dynamo needed a bit of fiddling with the contact on the wire the other night, but it still looks great and performs way better than I thought it would. I use it EVERY time I have a cycling opportunity, and I have two pretty good mountain bikes as well.

On the gearing thing. When I first got it, I felt it was over geared, and planned to get a smaller front chainring, but now, I don't think it is, and as I got more confident in it, I realised I could stand up on the pedals and push hard on the 45inch bottom gear and get up almost anything I come up against.

Wavshredr's right about the cost of all the bags and stuff you get free with the Merc. I don't think an M3 comes with much beside the bare bones bike (but you can check on that yourself).

The only thing I really would like are better brakes. I rode my mountain bike the other day and applied them like I do to slow the Merc and I nearly went over the bars, however, that's exactly how the Brompton is.

That is why I loved my Merc vs. the normal Merc or Brompton. The brakes rock! A pad upgrade will help though. Get the Kool-Stop salmon mtn. bike ones. They work MUCH better than the stock ones and don't eat your rims up!

Hi Guys. Thanks for the responses. Not only for your responses to this thread, but for taking the time in the past. You two provided a real service.

Sorry about the vague comparison to the M-3 Brompton. I just meant that the GT-3 Merc has that type of handlebar and a 3 speed hub. Both of you are absolutely corect regarding the cost of all of the options. It is a major reason to go with the Merc. Just to make sure that this remains an advertisement, the Merc also comes with a carry bag and telescoping post.

I never saw the pictures of your bike WAvESHRDR. But I think that my mental picture is pieced together from your posts. Can the suspension handlebar post be replaced with a quill stem as in the earlier example? I also read that you actually bought a Ti Brompton to get the parts. Is it possible to simply get the fork/triangle? Can I write that your experience with the front derailer is a success?

What is the weight savings from hi-ten to cro-mo to titanium?

Size wise, I am just a little too big for the standard seat post on a Brompton: I like to say 6', but on a bad day I am more like 5' 11". However, on my regular bikes I like my seat high.

By the way, am I right about the material for the forks and rear triangle? That the standard Brompton is cro-mo while the Merc hi-ten steel.

So EvilV, you actually went on a loaded tour (bike with camping gear) on the bike? That is impressive.

Even though the range is hardly improved with the 6 speed, the rear derailer does give a lot more options. We would want to use it on some long rides. I am thinking that the rear derailer will make life easier in the long run.

I am still waiting to hear back from Anita regarding the availability of the 6 speed and a few other questions. (I also inquired on a schedule for the 8 speed SA hub) I'll let everyone know her response.

Time for me to run. Take care!

-G

What doesn’t show up exactly correct is that the Merc weighs more than a Brompton even with the Merc’s lighter frame because it has more accessories on it. -Wavshrdr

With all my steel framed bikes-one dating from the 1960's-I go with a simple approuch to improving when it comes to optional accessories. I either do without it, subsitute another brand that might even do the accessory in question far better, or live with it until it breaks. Like modern cars, bikes are becoming more and more cluttered with excessive junk.

On the gearing thing. When I first got it, I felt it was over geared, and planned to get a smaller front chainring, but now, I don't think it is, and as I got more confident in it, I realised I could stand up on the pedals and push hard on the 45inch bottom gear and get up almost anything I come up against. -EvilV

The old English 3 speeds, the Brompton, and now it's competitor and mimic the Merc, is based on a basic seemingly limited range of gears that in actual use, is far more adapted to most range of terrain that I encounter here in my rather hilly neighborhood. My chainrings are all in the mid-forties and the rear cogs are probably similar in diameter. I never seem to honk or whatever the performance orientated rides seem to do on hills. I don't want to damage my good business clothes. I simply gear down to the level I need to accomplish the task at hand without too much taxing my body or bike.

One other major (for me) plus the Merc has over the B is I like the twist-grip shifter vs. the thumb ones on the B. Much more intuitive. One thing that is nice that the Merc has is the little clip to keep the rear from falling under the bike when you pick it up. This is a nice touch too. You could of course add it to a B and if I owned one I’d definitely do it. -Wavshrdr

The grip shifter is a nice touch for the performance person. But I find that the trigger shifter is more easy to replace, and to gently shift into another gear without grinding. I don't care to race my bike. As for the clip, I buy one when I get around to it. I prefer to let my bike quickly fold in since I take it on public transit alot. If I need to keep the rear end from dropping when I pick the bike up, I simply use a short bungee cord for right now.

For your purchase of either the Brompton or the Merc, let me sum up what is the most important part of the bike-that is you and your wife. That variable is the most forgotten and neglected part of the bike/rider "relationship." The only difference I can tell between the two bikes is the frame (steel-Brompton or aluminum-Merc) and all the fancy add ons offered at purchase. One of the things that Brompton offers is the retro fitting of most of it's accessories and even components like brakes. I go simple and see what I actually need as I go along with the "C." If there is a next time with another bike, I would know what I need and want and go from there. It is a growth thing with me. Confidence grows with knowledge of my needs vs. what the company wants to spoon feed my ego. Then I end up with what I want rather than going broke or trying to pass off the bike on another unsuspecting soul.

In my opinion (i don't own a Brompton ), the Brompton (and now Merc) is a great piece of engineering. It is amazing how compact those bikes fold. The folded size is perfect for a lot usage. For me, since i don't fly often and don't take bus really more often (no buses in our 15000 peoples city), they would be perfect for car boot transport. I could nicely bring 2 in my tiny (by american standard) Chevy Tracker jeep. I could bring it in the office, at the cinema and all.

My biggest problem with Brompton and Merc is gear range. From what i read on Brompton Talk and this forum, a lot of peoples try to modify them to get a better gear range. Mountain/Speed drive, front derailler, 2 rear sprockets. I understand why Brompton do 3 speeds and 6 speeds bike only. I am not with them on this. If people want it why not build it?

What i prefer and could live easily with is 34", 41", 46", 52", 60", 65", 74". Sub-30" would be nice too. My Twenty do exactly what i want with this gear range. The folded package is far far from being as nice.

Note: I prefer derailler bikes. I was a bike mechanic for 10 years and i don't think i have seen more than 5 bikes with internal gear hub. Here, in Quebec, Canada i am sure no more than 5 bike mechanics can service a Sturmey Archer AW hub. From what i know, 3 speeds are efficient but 5-7 internal speeds hub are not that efficient. Maybe new 8 speeds are better.

Wouldn't it be nice to get as nice a folder as Brompton and a modern gear range on a stock bike? Technically, do you think a 126mm 7 speeds rear hub with derailler would increase the folded size by much? If not, maybe Merc could differentiate them by building a version with a greater gear range ? Then, a front derailler would make this bike even better for some buyer. Maybe a market exist. For myself, a Merc (or Brompton) folding bike with a 7 speeds (30-75") gear range (more with a front derailler) would be a perfect commuting/touring/travelling bike.

It is a dream. Bike are marvelous simple machine. The best machine ever in fact!

The problem with not owning a Brompton is that you don't get to look at one up close and see its gearing limitations. Spreading the chainstays as wide as 126mm would probably mean a new rear triangle will have to be built. This also means that the B. would not be as compact to fold, thus negating its main attribute. A modern derailleur would mean that the bike, when folded, would not tension the chain properly thus causing the chain potentially to drop off the rings when unfolding.

Sure all these limitations can be remedied (just look at Steve Parry's stuff). But is it worth it, and on whose dime?

We did not particularly care for the trigger/sliding shifter of the Brompton. Mind you, we have not tested the grip shifter for a comparison. Our impression was that the Brompton shifter was a bit awkward to use and aesthetically unappealing. However, I imagine that like anything else, one would get used to the different shifter in short order.

Another that occured to us is that having the three-speed internal hub, the two sprocket rear derailer, and the front derailer leads to three different shifters on the bike ...

... although I imagine that most of the time will be spent on the big chainring. The small chainring is just for steep hills and carrying loads.

-G

I personally don't like the trigger on the B. I do like the twist grip on the Merc and it is lower profile and more positive to use for me.

As for gearing range it isn't quite as limited as you might think. The bike is pretty light so I find I don't need a super low gear. The small tires climb quite well. The crank feels shorter so I can spin out in top gear easier. My Merc gets me pretty close to 300% which is better than a Nexus 7spd internal hub. I reckon the gear range is pretty good overall. Not great for blasting down a steep hill but it is low enough to climb well and I can cruise pretty fast on the flats. All in all it works much better than I thought it would.

As for gbouchar comments regarding repairing SA hubs, they tend to last a long time with minimal maintenance. I have yet to have any issues with any internal hub I've bought. Look at all the SRAM 3X7's on the road and they've had no issues that I've seen. Internal hubs just aren't as popular in the US and Canada as they are in Europe. For a commuter bike it is far and away my preference.

Completely agree with what you say about the twist grip gear change. It is very neat and positive. I don't know what the gearing range percentage is, but the gears are 45 inch, 60 inch, and 79 for the top, give or take for minor errors in measuring wheel circumference. In hilly terrain with a load aboard, I found this a bit tough at times when I was touring, and I have to admit to getting off more than once and pushing the outfit to the top, but I am 55, it was bloody hot, steep, and the bike had about forty pounds aboard her, hence the minor wheel truing problem after whizzing down a steep hill and running into a mess of potholes. I just touched up three of the spokes and it trued up nearly perfectly - only about a millimetre out now instead of about three.

Wavshrdr - thanks for the tip about the Koolstop brake pads, but I'm wondering about a retrofit of the brake mechanism that you have. Is it likely I could swap them out? Or maybe they're little cantilevers or something very different.

Here's the touring outfit parked outside a wayside inn - The Black Bull at Matfen, Northumberland, England.





Full size image here if you want detail:

https://img142.imageshack.us/my.php?i...ackbull2bk.jpg

Equipped like that, did you have problems with your heels catching/rubbing on the panniers?

EV – they have braze-ons the forks for the mounts. You could have this done. There are places that do this. The Kool-Stop (Salmon colored MTB) pads will help too. This is very important to get the salmon colored MTB pads. You have to juggle them a little getting them in there and due to the small diameter rim they have to be aligned perfectly but what a great improvement. We go from marginal Brompton brakes to at least adequate. By adequate I mean they will actually slow you when needed but if you are heavily loaded, touring and in the hills I would still exercise caution.

The upgraded brakes on the Merc GT6 will stop on a dime and give you change. EV, another upgrade that will help is possible better levers in general. I don’t know on the Merc GT3 what they have but if they are like the C model Bromptons they are pitiful and pathetic. The higher end Brommies levers are better than the C models but still not great.

EV- if you can’t find anything PM me and I’ll see what I can do to help. If need be I could ship you something as US mail to the UK isn’t that expensive. I have found that compared to EU prices it would be cheaper to buy here and then send there even after you pay postage on smaller items. For example a mirror here that was $15 was 20Euro. It would cost about $4 or so to mail it via airmail. Still works out to be a decent cost savings especially if you buy several parts at once that aren’t super heavy.

The beauty of the Merc is it starts out inexpensive so even if you do upgrades that net you a better bike than a Brommie you still have less money in it. FYI, you could drop your gearing if you want to so it will climb hills better and give up a little top speed. For me I'll gladly make that trade-off as if necessary I can try and pedal faster.

We did not particularly care for the trigger/sliding shifter of the Brompton. Mind you, we have not tested the grip shifter for a comparison. Our impression was that the Brompton shifter was a bit awkward to use and aesthetically unappealing. -invisiblehand

I personally don't like the trigger on the B. I do like the twist grip on the Merc and it is lower profile and more positive to use for me...
.....regarding repairing SA hubs, they tend to last a long time with minimal maintenance. I have yet to have any issues with any internal hub I've bought. Look at all the SRAM 3X7's on the road and they've had no issues that I've seen. Internal hubs just aren't as popular in the US and Canada as they are in Europe. For a commuter bike it is far and away my preference. -Wavshrdr

Completely agree with what you say about the twist grip gear change. It is very neat and positive. -EvilV

The ugly Brompton shifter was taken off and replaced with something I liked far better-a traditional metal three speed shifter I kept as a spare for my other 2 bikes. The gear selection is clearly marked (1, 2, or 3), the shifting stick lever is small and non intrusive, and when and if the unit breaks-I get another one and replace the whole unit-rather than playing with little awkward parts. As for it's chances for failure, I still use a shifting unit from 40 years ago! It is still a matter of what works for the individual.

The most important part of the drivetrain is the hub. Those AW hubs are the best for the type of riding that I now do-commuting. The derailleur bikes I had up until 2 years ago were more of a headache than a help even for the hills surrounding me. I do not miss them at all.

...they have braze-ons the forks for the mounts. You could have this done. There are places that do this. The Kool-Stop (Salmon colored MTB) pads will help too. This is very important to get the salmon colored MTB pads. You have to juggle them a little getting them in there and due to the small diameter rim they have to be aligned perfectly but what a great improvement. We go from marginal Brompton brakes to at least adequate. By adequate I mean they will actually slow you when needed but if you are heavily loaded, touring and in the hills I would still exercise caution.
...The upgraded brakes on the Merc GT6 will stop on a dime and give you change. EV, another upgrade that will help is possible better levers in general. I don’t know on the Merc GT3 what they have but if they are like the C model Bromptons they are pitiful and pathetic. The higher end Brommies levers are better than the C models but still not great. -Wavshrdr

My "pitiful and pathetic" C Brompton has undergone a transformation. The most hated part of the bike (yes the brakes for me) has went it's first transformation. I have not decided on the braking system that I think would work for me, so I simply did some slight improvements on the stock brakes until I decide on the new braking system I want and would work as well as my Boardwalk's does. A brake pad change (Kool Stops) and rotating the levers up a bit helped greatly for comfort and stopping power, but I will not take it out in wet conditions or do much in the way of hill riding until I find what I want. The Merc's appeal of better brakes up front does not do much for me as I am not too keen on being too brand loyal or buying a bike based on just one or two parts. I still like to experiment on other makes of components to better reflect my needs-and continue to buy steel framed bikes only.

Thanks for the information Wavshrdr. I think I'll try the Koolstops before going to the braze on modification. If it improves the performance enough, I'll leave it alone, but I have to do something. On a hill I ride every day, I can apply the front brake at 15 mph and just sail on down without a chance of stopping unless I put the rear brake on as well and SQUEEZE until my knuckles go white. Thanks for the kind offer to arrange shipment. Leave it with me a while, because they are probably available here. I have to go to the bike shop today, because yesterday, I bust a spoke in the rear wheel. There's a Brompton dealer about ten miles away who may keep the right type of spoke. It looks to be about 152 mm - same as the Brompton rear, but I'm not sure what gauge it is. It's the same as the front, so it's probably a 14 gauge spoke. Brompton upgraded their early design from 14 gauge rear spokes to 13. While I'm there, I'll ask about the salmon Koolstops.

I didn't realise I'd bust a spoke until I was cleaning the bike yesterday afternoon, but I did hear a sharp metalic twang yesterday morning as I was pedalling along, and thought I'd run over some debris. I stopped and looked but could see none. Strange really, I hadn't hit a pothole or anything, I was just accellerating after a junction.

Bookishboy -

Yes, I did have a bit of bother with the heal / pannier contact. I mounted the bag as far to the rear as I could and had to use my instep for pedal contact, rather than the ball of my foot - a bit un-natural at first, but I got used to it.

Busted spokes and Bromptons go hand in hand. To hear this happening on the Merc means Merc has copied the design pretty well.

Keep in mind that EV was carrying a big load and probably never checked the spoke tension after riding it for a while. I had a Dahon that I had to check the spokes before every ride to make sure I had no issues. They loosened up a lot. If I hadn't done that as frequently as I did I would have busted a ton of them in short order.

For most bikes, only a cursory check is needed nowadays as most wheels come pretty well (machine) made. Bromptons, in general, seem to be the only exception whether loaded or even moderately loaded; the newsgroup is full of these kinds of stories. However, I have a feeling it's because they are trying to 3 cross 13 guage spokes. When I had to get my wheel rebuilt after two months, the LBS used 14 guage for 2 cross. Not like I care what Merc does, but if they're getting their wheels built by the same builder, that's a shame.

As far as Dahon goes, my reading from various sources is that their frames are good but their components and integrated technology can be spotty, and it's not model dependent either. For me, I like what I got, except for the faulty front hub. Would I buy Dahon again? Not any time soon; I'm pretty much going to stick with Bike Friday for the forseeable future. Besides, I'm in the process of trying to turn my Bridgestone MB-6 into a road rocket, maybe with 700c wheels.

I fixed the spoke. I got ten at a bike shop specialising in folders for £2.60, which I thought was pretty cheap.

The cause I think is that Merc use 14 gauge spokes on front and back wheels. Apparently, Brompton swapped over to using heavier 13 gauge spokes on the rear wheel a long time ago after a spate of breakages. I had tuned up the spokes a touch just about a month ago Wavshrdv, none were loose and the wheel was pretty well true as of a week ago when I last checked it. It had a slight run out of about 1mm, but I'd call that pretty well true. Also, when it pinged, I was the only load and I weigh about 170 pounds. I was accellerating out of the saddle though, but I ride a lot like that, especially on hills.

Anyway - all is fixed now and it was a doddle to refit the new 13 gauge spoke. It was a slightly tight fit getting it through the hub. I actually had to screw the threaded part into the hole in the hub, but once that was through the rest just slid in neatly.

Given that Brompton now use 13 gauge in the rear wheel, I expect the spare spokes I bought will come in handy before long.

Wav, if you are selling, please let us know over here. I would love to buy a Merc6 at the right price

There was a discussion some time ago on the legality of Merc. The conclusion was that the patents expired so the design is open house for all producers. However, Brompton apparently copyrighted the appearance and style of their bike as well. Since it has held up in court in the past, they should have exclusivity on the design for another 50 or so years.

"Scoop" was the model name of a Brompton knock-off imported by a Netherlands company. There is a follow-up article on the same thread that discusses an out-of-court settlement.

Found at https://www.bikebiz.co.uk/daily-news/article.php?id=4692

Friday 24th September 2004
Brompton swoops on Scoop
Earlier this year, a consignment of 250+ folding bicycles was imported into Holland by Neobike Europe, a Dutch firm who distribute Taiwanese folding bikes in Europe. The bikes were branded Scoop, and, said Brompton, were based "almost exactly on the Brompton design." Brompton launched a lawsuit: and has just won it.

Brompton charged Neobike Europe with breach of copyright and/or authorship rights. Brompton's case was successful, with a judgement ruling that the Scoop bikes did indeed infringe Brompton's copyright: this ruling was made in Groningen on February 26th but details were not released until today.

Brompton also obtained an interim attachment order relating to the goods, and the bikes are now impounded, pending a final decision on their disposal.

Although Brompton's original patent covering the principle of folding has elapsed, the design and styling of the Brompton nonetheless have copyright protection, and this has been confirmed by the Groningen judgement.

"Many other excellent and original new designs of folder have also appeared in recent years, and we welcome such competition: it genuinely serves to generate interest in the concept," said Brompton's founder Andrew Ritchie.

"But we are not happy to see products with styling contrived to be similar to that of the Brompton: this confuses the consumer, and can do damage to the marque, especially if performance and/or quality is not as good. Brompton has pioneered many refinements that make a portable bike a pleasure to own and use, and our designs involve great attention to detail and an unrivalled understanding of how such bikes are used. This is what has secured our success, and naturally we do not wish to see this undermined by copiers with little feel for how a quality portable bike should perform."

Translation from Dutch of the key point (section 4.1) of the Groningen judgement:

Firstly in this case one must clarify whether the Brompton does in fact - as Brompton c.s. have maintained - possess an original character and bear an original mark of the maker, thus allowing the Brompton to enjoy copyright protection.
?One must conclude that this is indeed the case here. While it is undoubtedly true, as Van Ellen c.s. [Neobike Europe] have asserted, that the Brompton features various elements which, taken individually, can also be found in other foldable bicycle models, the specific combination of the folding technique, the design of the bicycle in the form of an "H" and the form of the handlebars in the form of a "U", all in combination with the bent horizontal frame tube, nevertheless mean that the Brompton, taken in its totality, can clearly be regarded as an original work with a personal mark of the maker.

When the Merc first appeared i felt fairly ambivalent about it (and even considered one to add to familly brompton & strida). But, now the more I think about Merc as a direct copy of Brompton, the more I wish Brompton best of luck and hope they are sucessful in suing Merc for copyright theft and get massive damages (if only the legal system was fair and affordable).

As consumers its easy for us to just see the sticker price and forget all the development thats gone into an original product. As in the music and video business' downloading doggy MP3's and buying obvious chinese imported DVD copies is cheaper - but is it right ? Similarly, Why should someone else (merc) benefit from the creative efforts of another (brompton), without their costs.

Theft is theft period !

----- Original Message -----
From: NoRMaN PHaY
To: BromptonTalk@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 11:18 AM
Subject: [BromptonTalk] Aargh @ "merc"

I saw an example of the "merc" brompton copy for the first time today
- a guy brought his into the shop because it had broken a spoke.
Unbelievable. Several of the parts, incl the rear chain tansioner
looked like they'd just taken a bromptom to bits and made moulds from
its components. I found myself feeling angry with the person who
bought it, and with the people who import it. Guy even had the cheek
to suggest I carry them in stock! Urgh at ethically twisted business
people.
-------------------------------------------------------

Isn't it odd that he still sold the spoke(s)?
Ethics indeed.

So do you think there is copyright infrigement if somone takes the original design, modifies and then resells it? I hate to say it but there is so little original thought in many areas of engineering. Who is to say that Brompton didn't borrow their idea from someone else? Based on the quote from the copyright case many Dahons would infringe on Bromptons copyright. Who's to say that Merc isn't paying a licensing fee. I don't know. All I know is that my Merc is better than the last Brompton I road in many functional areas. I personally don't care that much for the Brompton styling NOR is the reason I bought it. I bought it for its function not its form.

So with respect to copyrights they are more about style than function. Patents cover function. It would be quite easy to slightly modify the desing to minimize infringement on Bromptons design. The Merc GT6 does not have bars in the shap of a U so that lessens the potential infringement. Then you have the issue of jurisdiction with respect to trademarks and were they were registered. It all becomes a big mess in many ways.

For me my Merc was much better than my Brompton regardless of how it looked.

Yo man, anyone can cook hamburgers but only one company gets to advertise the golden arches. That's the current contention as I read it.