As a guy who has primarily worked on quick release hubs, I need some instruction on how to adjust the Sturmey Archer 8 hub on my Mini. Typically, I would tighten the cone nuts until there was a little play when the wheel is off the frame but no play when the wheel is mounted. However, it appears that doing that with the SA 8 results in a hub with a lot of resistance ... at least without a load on the wheel; i.e., on a bike stand. For instance, if I turn the crank vigorously and release it, the cog on the rear hub continues to spin with the crank until the hub itself slows down considerably.

On a bolt-on hub, there should be no play, since there's no quick-release to compress the system.

I dunno what you should do if you readjust and there's still resistance though.

SA8 manual.

HTH,
tcs

Thanks. But I did look at the manual and saw the "minimal play" and "hub runs free" references at the end. At the moment, there is a direct trade off between the two and it isn't clear where to stop.

SA hubs typically can't be made to run free without some play at the rim. Perhaps a mm max at the rim is OK.

That is interesting to note. SA hubs are the only internal hubs that I have ever tinkered with. Is this a characteristic of all internal hubs or SA hubs only?

I only have experience with the SA hubs, so don't know.

Thanks, I needed that!

My hub is in pretty bad shape, and one of these days I'm going to have to face the music and overhaul the thing. So... for those of you who have opened these things up, I have Lots-O-Questions!

--What special tools did you need -- like this "ball ring spanner" thingie, what's that and where did you get it? Is there an alternative?
--Did you replace the circlip and pawl springs as instructed, or did you just re-use everything?
--If you replaced anything, where did you get the replacement parts?
--What grease did you use when reassembling?

Any advice will be appreciated!
Rudi

Watch this space...

OK here goes...

1. ball ring spanner: I made one using a piece of rectangular alum. tubing into which I tapped and screwed 2 M5 machine screws. The screws go right through the material and stick out a few mm on the other end, and those ends engage the semi-circular cut-outs on the ball ring. In the middle of the alum tubing between the 2 screws, a hole is drilled to allow the axle to stick through when engaging the ring spanner. The hole is just large enough, and when I put the ball ring spanner on, I fasten it down with an axle nut so it stays put. Remember to back off the axle nut when unscrewing the ball ring.

IMPORTANT: The ball ring has LEFT HAND THREAD! The manual is wrong!

You could try tapping the ball ring out with a hammer and screw driver. I tried that; didn't work, mostly because I was tapping in the wrong direction. So I made a spanner, and the spanner showed that no amount of force was unscrewing it. So I tried the left hand way, and presto! it came out.


I re-used all parts.

Grease is a problem. I got the best results with something called cable grease which comes out very thin from a spray can, then turns into a gel when the solvent evaporates. Everything else I tried just ran out again.

Very important: Do not make the same mistake as I and deform the ball retainers! Doing so ruined them, and no amount of fiddling could get them right again.

For your service, assuming all is OK with the gear works, don't do anything to the inner works, just remove it and set aside, leave the gel on it. It may be that all you need are new balls; they are standard size. Get rust-proof ones. Carefully pop the old ones out of their retainers, clean the latter and pop in new balls. Grease with ordinary grease and re-assemble the lot.

Work carefully with the plastic seal as it is plastic and can break.

Good luck!

Thanks, Jur!

I'll be working on the hub this weekend. I'm afraid I won't be able to re-use all the parts, especially this one, which I found when I took the left cone off a couple days ago:
It was mixed with filthy grease, so at first I thought it was just dirt... but after cleaning it up a bit I decided it was a ball retainer (but am willing to listen to other theories). Did I mention the bearings were running rough?

Yep that was a ball retainer.

You could dispense with the left retainer but run the risk of the balls dropping into the hub. I think the left is a standard size. I ran mine for a while without left retainer.

Yeah, "" sums it up pretty well. They seem to be standard 1/4" balls, no problem there, though I thought seven a rather low number for a rear hub. Did you leave it at 7, or did you put in one or two more?

When running without retainer I pushed more in, as many as I could fit in.

I rode like that for a week or so; but the hub kept on becoming more draggy, and I kept backing off the left cone under the mistaken impression it was too tight. Then one day the hub suddenly became mis-aligned and I thought the left balls had dropped into the hub. But on disassembly, they were still all there despite the big play. The drag problem was something else altogether, not the unretained balls. It was the ring under the plastic seal.

I wonder whether that is causing extra drag on my hub. From the earlier discussion, I was thinking of partially disassembling the hub just to do a quick cleaning and inspection.

I'd never put in more balls than the manufacturer did. Why would one think an amateur mechanic knows more about the required number of balls than the designer and manufacturer?

That isn't meant to sound rude - it's just an observation.

Maybe when they are all seated and the cones are adjusted up, they are binding because they don't have enough room.

Hmmmm? I don't have extra ball bearings inside my hub.

But my hub was pretty loose when delivered ... there was a lot of play in the wheel. I didn't realize how loose until after cleaning parts of the hub with a degreaser after which the hub sounded a little crunchy. I figured some dirt fell deep into some cracks. I loosened the lock and cone nuts to clean inbetween some of the components quickly and to re-coat a few workings with grease. Afterwards, I tightened the nuts such that it fit with my priors regarding how a hub should feel after repacking a standard hub/freehub.

Anyway, my problem is that I don't have a good sense of what "normal" is with the SA 8 hub.

No worries, I'd never think such a thing!

Remember, the designer and the manufacturer are not necessarily the same person. Manufacture and assembly can go awry in any number of ways, and when I found shreds of twisted metal in the bearings, I assumed something had gone awry (though not necessarily during manufacture).

The logic is that a retainer maintains the balls at an even spacing, and if the retainer is removed, the balls will travel closer to one another, leaving a large gap somewhere. In general that space will be right where you least want it. So when using loose balls you normally use a slightly higher number than you would if they were in a retainer. Anyway, that's the logic.

When in doubt (i.e. after removing twisted metal, dropping an unknown number of balls on the floor, etc), most mechanics will put in as many balls as will fit comfortably in the cup, and then remove one. After I took the shreds of my ball retainer out of the cup, I had room for two extra balls, so I put in one. I haven't ridden the bike yet --there are other issues-- so I don't know if it's all right.

My apologies. I mistook the conversation, and thought your, 'that might be the trouble' remark, referred to the extra balls that someone else mentioned. Sorry.

As for what is normal about the 8 speed, I have no idea. Just reading here, it seems a tad more temperamental than the three speed one that I have. Actually, I have tried amateur mechanic mods on mine, but only in so far as I replaced the SA103 grease with light engine oil. That is not so far out though since the hubs used to be oiled and not greased and I made the judgement that the change to grease was made because the new company (and the old one, for it was they who first made the move to grease) knew modern people don't have oil cans and wouldn't be bothered to look after the hubs like people used to do. Not being a modern person in that regard, I just drip a few drops of oil in about every six weeks.

Regards

It is a huge pain when servicing something and all the balls fall out. I remember at aged about 11, undoing the steering on my first bike, an ancient Brit, ladies bike with a dent in the man tube, and to my horror, all the balls fell out all over the yard and ran about in the early winter gloom and grit..... It was a right pain, and I only found some of them. Later, I foolishly repeated mechanical bodgery and destruction many more times, next on bottom brackets, later, breaking piston rings on motor bikes, snapping head studs also on motorbikes, warping cylinder heads and eventually, having an inexpertly replaced cam belt snap a week after I had proudly finished fitting it.... Now I just confine myself to riding bikes a bit and pontificating about how they should be maintained.... I learned a bit from these experiments in destroying machines, but mostly, I learned that I should leave them alone and just clean and lubricate them.

Perhaps I, too, will one day learn this valuable lesson. Not likely, judging from past experience.

Sacrilege! You are forever cursed to riding a stock Coker Monster Cruiser up a hill.

LOL - I looked at that and thought it was a small kid with a man's bike, then I noticed that the wheels are 36".... That's a terrible curse, something like that ancient Greek guy that had to roll a rock up hill for ever.

No - me neither. I expect I'll wreck a lot more machines by 'loving them' with extra maintenance before I finally toss away the spanners.

That is a very good question.

I once read (at Sheldonbrown?) that since the load is shared by the balls, the higher number of balls is better. Retainers increase friction, but make assembly easier and also allow manufacturers to get away with fewer balls. I have seen retainers with huge spaces between balls. So the wisdom was to dump the retainers for better performance, and put in as many balls as will fit in comfortably.

jur is correct. Retainers are mostly about ease of assembly and saving a couple of cents in ball bearings.