Upgrading to internal hub?
 

I have a new entry level NWT with 24 gears and twist shifters and the gearing is less then perfect. It makes all kind of irregular clicks and clacks and the shifting at some combination is non deterministic (e.g. in center chaining and rear gear #6). I guess that you get what you pay for so I consider to upgrade it.

1. What should I expect from a higher end derailleur based gear, will the operation be smooth precise and deterministic? any recommendation for a good gear system?

2. Does it make sense to upgrade to an internal hub? If so, any recommendation for a good internal hub that will fit the NWT? (I presume that I will not need a front derailleur). The Rohloff 14 is not out of question but it really need to be perfect to justify the price.

Any suggestion will be greatly appreciated. The bike runs well in general but the gearing requires constant attention (including micro adjustment of the front derailleur so it does not touch the chain) which distract from the fun of riding the bike. I tested today a Dahon Vitesse with internal hub (for my son, he is also looking for a folder) and I was surprised how smooth the ride and shifting.

Thanks,

Kam

What do you mean by deterministic?? That you don't know what the gearing is? If there's one thing that gearing ISN'T, it's non-deterministic. Do you mean that there's chain rub?

When I change the right gear to 6, sometimes it changes to sixth gear and some times it does not. I it is kind of unpredictable. In some cases it even take 5-10 secs to actually shift. By deterministic I mean that if I turn the shifter to #6, it will always change immediately to the 6th gear.

Kam

shimano alfine

I would use the word 'precise', or 'positive' to describe what you mean. Deterministic is not the right word I think.

On the problem with your gears, it sounds like a workshop tune up would sort most of the problem out. It is true that some micro adjustment might need to be done when on different front chain rings, but that is predictable as the chain line deviates to the outer and inner rear sprockets. If you visualise the chain, you will see how at the outer and inner sprockets, it is pulled to the left or the right and might rub the rear of the front derailleur cage.

+1

Cable friction is very likely the main culprit. Learn to adjust derailer systems if you can't already.

But remember, the very best habit you can learn with derailers, is whenever you shift against the resistance of the derailer spring, go a little past, hold it for a moment till shifting is complete.

A quality 9sp rear system will likely do the job of clean quiet shifting for you. I go with XT gear these days - best bang for buck. A hub is great but a much bigger expense.

Also, get a 9sp chain from KMC with X-plate profile. They are really very good indeed. It will work well with the 8sp system.

I understand well your desperation with the gearing :bang:and that you want to do this:troll: If you payed the price is listed in Bike Friday's web site, I do not consider your NWT a cheap bicycle!


The problem is not the derrailleur, but the shifter. As Jur told you, if you learn how to fine tune a derrailleur system, you will see that you have a typical bad adjusted derrailleur. Cable friction, minute derrailleur adjustments and finally when you set the derrailleur, you need to screw down as much as possible the cable tension barrels. You can use the most simple SIS derrailleur with a friction thumb shifter, it will make wonders !:love: By the way, all my bicycles, including road and mountain bicycles work with friction shifters and not indexed.

Yes indeed it makes all the sense to install an internal gear hub in your folding bicycle, but I think that now you are precipitating your decision just because a bad adjusted derrailleur. First of all take the bicycle to a good mechanic to adjust the derrailleurs and within a couple of thousands of kilometers if you still think you an internal gear hub, then install it.

Indeed you're right about the smoothness!

I really like my little hub gear bike, and I'm currently upgrading my full-size derailleur bike to a hub gear as well, but I agree with the other comments that what you really need is some adjustments to your cables and/or your derailleur settings. Also, there's other places to look for clicks, but given that you aren't always shifting when you want and the chain sometimes hits the front derailleur, it seems likely that at least some of your problems are related to derailleur function. If you're not comfortable messing with that yourself, take it somewhere for a complete tune up asking them to pay particular attention to the shifting and the drivetrain.

I would never discourage you from getting an internally geared hub, but the problems you describe should be fixable for considerably less then the expense of an IGH system. Also some things to consider if you do go with an IGH:
If you go with anything less than a Rohloff you will probably lose some of the range you currently have unless you continue to use a front derailleur. Many people find that the gear range of your typical 8 or 9 speed hub is all they need, so it might not be an issue, but it also probably won't be as large of a range as you are used to.
An IGH will move your chain farther out from the center in the back, meaning that you'll probably need to move it farther out in the front for proper chain line. I believe this usually involves replacing the bottom bracket.
Your front chainrings may not be an optimal size for your new hub, so those may need to be replaced, too, but you can probably get by with two, rather than three (or one, if all of your shifting is going to take place at the IGH).

In short, just about every part of your drivetrain will possibly need to be replaced. Not that it's not worth it, but it's something you should take into consideration going in.

You can see my NWT with Alfine here. If you want to swap to a Shimano IGH you'll need to get one built up into a wheel and buy a shifter for it [they come separately]. You'll also need a chain tensioner. You can run it with a single chainring or use a double for a wider gear range.

I'm a fan of Rohloffs [I've got two] and one would definitely give you the gear range you need with a single chainring, but honestly if you are going to add a $1500 hub to your NWT I'd sell the current one and get BF to build you a Rohloff specific NWT. You'll be a lot happier in the long run.

As others have noted you can probably improve the shifting of your existing system at low cost if you take it to a good bike shop.

I think that Brompton and Birdy have both sourced high-end IHG with a narrower hub spacing, suitable for compact folders. These hubs are supplied OEM (to the bike factory) not to bike shops. I use Alfine on my sort-of folding Dahon and it works really well.
Shimano gears should work well no matter how much or little you pay for them. There is no need to go to XT level just to get gears that index well. Learn how to adjust the gears, the difference between adjusting cable tension and the derailleur end-stops. parktools.com is a good source.

A lot of the reason whey the Vitesse felt so smooth is the straight chain line. On folders (which have short chain stays) with a deraileur the chain will tend to be at more extreme angles. This will create more chain noise than a touring bike for example with very long chain stays (longer space between the rear axle & the bottom bracket or crankset). I rode my fiance's MU XL, which has an internal gear hub, yesterday & today to work. It feels a lot smoother than my Speed P8 with a deraileur.

I wouldn't be too quick to give up on the deraileur. Since the bike is new, the cables will tend to stretch a bit & they will need a slight adjustment.

It sounds like you need to adjust the rear derailer.

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/derailer-adjustment.html

In my experience, no internal hub shifts as well as a shimano cassette and tuned rear derailer; although some internal hubs shift well.

What are you using the bike for? Do you need a super wide gear range?

I think you are jumping the gun when a simple fix will improve the shifting significantly. Internal hub and derailer drivetrains have their advantages such that switching to an internal hub may or may not be an improvement for your situation.

Thanks all for the good feedback. It seems that the consensus is that tuning up the derailleurs will improved thins significantly so I dropped it today at the LBS.

I still like the simplicity of an internal hub (with one or two chain rings) but if the derailleur will work well after the tuneup, I will have more time to look for a good configuration.

BTW, I tried to ride the bike today (before dropping at the LBS) but gave up after 200 yards or so. The bike are almost new (less than 15 miles) but the ride quality deteriorated very rapidly.

Thanks,

Kam

Invisiblehand, good call on providing the Sheldon Brown link. Kamtsa, any gearing system, be they derailler or internal gear based, will need some tuning at some point. If you follow the link invisiblehand provided, you will learn how to adjust the derailler yourself. It's not hard, and it is an invaluable thing to learn how to do.

Juan

Nothing special, just riding trails and roads that are somewhat hilly. Currently I have a range of about 1:5. A range of 1:3 will cover my existing 2.2 to 3.8 gear combinations. A range of 1:3.5 will cover my existing 1.3 to 3.8 gears .

I think I can live with 1:3.5 internal hub or a 1:3 internal hub and two chainrings.

Kam

Your bike is very new and needs time to be "broken in." All my bikes that I bought new had to go through this. My Brompton had very little to settle in. My Dahons had somewhat more major problems to be dealt with. Even cars have to be broken in too. Let your LBS handle the fine tuning of your derailleur system. Then I recommended you learn to keep your bike in great functioning order by simple cleaning, adjustments, lubbing, and tightening parts yourself.

I only use internal hub gears on my present bikes now. It is the only way to go for the style and riding habits I currently and in the near future will do. After you get more comfortable with your new bike, feel free to look into this nice way to have multiple gears without exposing them to the elements.

Vik, is the Rohloff really a perfect solution? That is, if I will take the plunge, am I 'guaranteed' to have long lasting perfect shifting with virtually zero maintenance?

Any down side other than the price?

Thanks,

Kam

Weight and stealability. Your NWT isn't exactly easy to fold & carry inside to begin with.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2206/...b9d278efae.jpg

Is the Rohloff a perfect solution?....I'd be afraid to say anything is a perfect solution, but here is what I can say about a Rohloff:

- the shifting will stay consistent regardless of external conditions [mud, dirt, etc...]
- since you have two shift cables the shifting is very fast and precise plus there is no spring so you will always get the shift when you turn the shifter
- maintenance is minimal...a yearly 15min oil change
- service life of a Rohloff is 150,000kms+
- Rohloff offers great customer service and sells even the smallest part separately [rubber cover for their shifter for example] so you can always get anything you need.

I bought one at the start of the 2008 riding season and used it for all sorts of riding incl...touring, cargo hauling and fun/recreational rides. I liked it enough to buy a second I'll use on a touring bike and a mountain bike - swapping between them as needed.

I'm sold enough on IGHs to put one in the last 3 bikes I've bought.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3292/...3c3819710b.jpg

My Rohloff'd Surly Big Dummy after hundreds of kms of dirt road touring. The bike pedaled and shifted as well the last km as the first and I did zero maintenance to the drivetrain. On another part of this tour that was dry I passed two tourers using derailleur gears who were trying to clean there drivetrains because the heavy dust from the dry road was messing up their shifting.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3101/...134555ef9d.jpg

This is the same wheel from the Big Dummy above that will be used in a MTB for riding in Sedona and Moab on an up coming road trip...I just bought a spare Rohloff shifter and I can move wheels between bikes in a few minutes.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3018/...96b419d1b1.jpg

Here is my 2nd Rohloff in a touring frame.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/...6fdc34b816.jpg

I can't afford 6 Rohloffs so I swap my 2 Rohloffs between as many bikes as I can and I use the cheaper, but quite nice Shimano Nexus 8 or Alfine in other bikes where I don't need a massive gear range.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3267/...185841f436.jpg

Nexus 8 in a Bike Friday NWT....:thumb:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3078/...6fdc34b816.jpg

Envy /\


That looks a really nice piece of kit.

Do you have any problem tensioning the chain correctly. It looks like the axle must be right up against the end of the slot in the drop outs, else it would tend to be pulled inwards by the pressure of the chain pulling on it.

No tensioning the chain was easy once I read Sheldon's helpful..."..how to tension your chain!!!" article. Once I followed his advice I had a tight chain and no slippage. The axle can be anywhere in the dropouts. Once I did the job right I've used the bike for 6 weeks and not touched the chain.

In the photo above the chain is a bit slack as I wasn't following Sheldon's tips at that point.

The Alfine has impressed. I've been using it for a purpose Shimano doesn't condone [MTBing] using a gear input ratio well below what Shimano approves of and to date it has worked perfectly for me. The Rohloff is amazing, but given the cost I'm happy to use an Alfine for applications that don't need the 500%+ gear range of the Rohloff or the super long service life.

If you don't have a need for the wide range, then you have a lot of flexibility. Note that if you are going to use the bike for touring or carrying a load, my personal experience is that the super low gears are a real benefit.

BTW, adjusting a derailer is a straight forward task. And I should add that you can call Bike Friday for help on adjusting the derailer.

Personally, I set it once and it stays tuned for a few thousand miles. A brand new set of cables will stretch and require a subsequent adjustment. But after that, you should be peachy for a long time.

Thanks.

sounds to me like the OP just wants to buy the Rohloff speedhub. He said himself money is not really an issue so i say DO IT!
You will never ever ever have to adjust the gears again, and with the kind of riding you are planning on doing, you will probably never even have to change the oil in the hub except for maybe when your grandchildren inherit it. If i had a couple grand lying around, id swap out my nexus hub for a rohloff in a second!
the hell with learning how to adjust your deraileur, get the speedhub and forget about it!
Be happy!! :)

How the micro adjustment is done on those shifters where you click up and down the shift. Do they allow micro adjustments as the twist shifter do?

Kam