I thought that the Brompton brakes were more than a 57 mm reach. Something in the low-60s from a few caliper measurements. But perhaps this has changed. I recall the Kogswell blog celebrating Tektro making quality brakes for a 57-74 mm reach -- this is a guess ... I simply recall it being considerably longer than standard reach brakes -- but are they easy to find?

By quality brakes, I understood it to mean dual pivot caliper brakes. There are BMX caliper brakes that are really long.

Dimensions are given in 3 coord system, and suitcases general comply with this. Many people are interested in putting a bicycle in a suitcase, or in a tight luggage compartment on a train. That's when real dimensions stack up, and a picture taken from above will demonstrate that there is a significant difference in this dimension, otherwise the photo gives the impression they are more or less equal. As the Brompton is the smallest folded package bicycle, it's important to show this attribute, because as even that size pushes the limit for 62" luggage, one cannot get larger without needing disassembly.

There are some speciality parts for Brompton and for Tikit that only their respective manufacturers can provide (ie, bushings, Brompton seatpost inner-plastic-collar, Brompton hinge clasp, Tikit pacman, etc). These will need servicing. Where can one buy those parts? For the Brompton, there are many many sites and shops that have these available. True for BF? Granted, BF may mitigate this by shipping directly, or maybe their new dealership network is working well for this. But for those outside of North America, how much is that gonna cost sending your ride to Oregon USA?

ps - those speciality parts for brompton are _not_: rear / front hub (other sources exist), crank, chainring, seat post, headset (I think), shifter, handlebars, etc. They are more frame/folding mechanism related. Remind everyone the normal first normal wear and tear time for Bromptons might be in 3 years or so in the average case - that's longer than the present life of the Tikit. Most people acknowledge the complexity of the TIkit and there have already been several modifications to certain aspects of this complexity.

You don't have to send your ride to Bike Friday for a basic repair. Their dealer network can handle it. Not sure where you get that idea from. Maybe you have this confused with warranty repair?

What is Brompton warranty repair like? Does one go to a dealer or send back to the company? Just wondering as I have no idea.

As for parts availability... Yes, there are several UK-based sites that have parts for Bromptons. If you're in the UK or Europe, it should be a breeze. Not sure what the situation is here in the US, but my guess is that one would have to order from one of those UK sites for many parts unless one happened to live near a well-stocked Brompton dealer (not likely in the US).

Whenever I've needed a part... even a nut/bolt, I've just asked Bike Friday for it... and they've shipped it to me without much fuss. I don't know how well that would work outside of the US. I know we've seen stories of Bike Friday shipping parts to their dealer network outside of the US, but that dealer network is fairly small so I'm sure it's not convenient for those that don't leave near one.

One point that is very valid though... The Brompton is an old design... and it works. It may not be perfect for everyone, but it's extremely reliable from the reports I've seen. The Tikit is a new design... and it will still be a few years before we know if it is nearly as reliable as the Brompton has been.

It's been interesting to read everyone's thoughts here.

Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, we have been using the term "standard". So if the rear dropouts are 110 mm like the other poster claimed and one would have a hard time finding an appropriate hub relative to standard rear hubs -- despite the language here, I think that there are varying degrees -- then the hub would be non-standard, IMO.

Personally, I don't think it would be that hard to get a 110 OLD SRAM/SA three speed hub. Here, you almost certainly would have to mail-order it or have your shop do the same. But the dropout spacing is certainly non-standard given the limited set of alternatives.

The difference in scale here is really big. The tikit has about six minor custom parts besides the frame itself, all of which are either unnecessary to use the bike, degrade gracefully, or are as strong as the frame. In contrast, the B's entire drivetrain is special, not to mention the stem and handlebars, cables, brake assembly, suspension system, levers, and shifters.

Not a single one here in Rome or anywhere nearby. Seriously, given the specific repairs I've done here, I think I'd be in big trouble if I had a Brompton.

It's true: I've had the same experience. And for free or trivial cost.

Yep. The most likely place where I think the Tikit's going to have a reliability issue is seatmast latch wear.

I think folding bikes for suitcases is a very small part of the market. Most people are interested in commuting or putting them in their cars and for this purpose the picture accurately shows that the bikes are more or less equal.

Also, I'm tired of people touting the Brompton as the smallest folded packages. It's not. there is a whole slew of smaller folders out there. Although I agree that a Brompton is probably ideal for packing in a suitcase since in that case as long as you meet the 62" requirement there's not much point going smaller.

Standard means it's the most common or prevalent option. Proprietary means it is only used by a single entity. Just because something is nonproprietary that doesn't necessarily mean it's also standard.

The Tikit seems to be a better bicycle:

More gear options, more customizable, more cockpit room for the tall rider, better brakes out of the box, faster fold, better rolling capabilities under "less-than-perfect" asfalt/sidewalk conditions.

For the reasons you are tired from hearing, the Brompton is still a better option. To me. No room for competition yet.

The tikit and the brommie are like apples and oranges. Not the same. I like both. :thumb:

someone said this once "the tikit is a folding BIKE" and "the brompton is a FOLDING bike."

I recently had the chance to try out some folding bikes after reading through much of the advice here. In particular I spent an afternoon at a Brompton shop.

First, the comments regarding twitchy handlebars are true. Yet after 15-20 minutes, I felt this improved greatly. I was able to turn some sharp "figure of 8s" and at the end of the day, I felt comfortable riding in traffic back to the train station. Still I can see how this could turn off potential buyers! I imagine no hands riding would be terribly difficult as well if that's important to some…

I'm 5'11" and found the fit perfectly fine using S-bars and an extended seatpost. I liked a more upright position w/ the option of flexing down for a small tuck.

I had considered it a given that the Tikit would have the better ride, but the Brompton was clearly superior!

Let me say that the Tikit's faster (perhaps 1-2 km/hr or so?) and the Tikit allows you to climb out of the saddle, but the Brompton was so much more comfortable. I rode over cracks, bumps, and everything but curbs. The rear suspension was amazing. If I'd owned the bike, I'd have felt comfortable going down curbs btw but felt that would be poor form on a test ride. My preference at 190lbs is for the Regular suspension and I did not notice a sig. loss of power riding.

There were some things I didn't like about the Brompton that I haven't seen mentioned here.
-- Changing a tire on a 6-speed looks to be a significant endeavor involving flashlights, a stand, and some trial and some error. I'd be wary of doing a long ride in the boonies w/out ready access to support or a mechanic. The Tikit's much easier to deal w/ as far as flats.

-- The gearing system is abominable. While the six speed covers roughly the same gear range as a Tikit, the shifting is much more involved. I heard people talk about how great it is to shift gears at a stand still, but I hadn't realized that you couldn't change the hub gears while pedaling. This became more natural w/ time but even at the end was less efficient. Certainly in rolling hill country you would lose out in having to hold the pedaling to shift up / shift down etc.

So I had and still have some doubts about the Brompton. What crossed off the Tikit from my list though was an incident on a train an hour later that day. I saw a gentleman push his Tikit into a crowd; it was funny b/c he shouted out, "Come on now, don't be afraid!" But there was still a zone of wariness.

BTW, that side by side picture of the two bikes on the first page is misleading; a photoshop trick or photography trickperhaps?

I'll grant that he got his folder on the train. Perhaps if he'd have placed the showercap, it wouldn't have seemed so odd? And of course, if he'd have avoided riding in rush hour in the first place, there'd have been plenty of room…

In that moment, it just seemed to me that the Tikit was an "in your face" kind of folder. Now I've lived in New York and I remember how to elbow my way in and keep my space, but while I love the city, I chose to live somewhere else.

Later that weekend, I was surprised to see a man w/ a Brompton on a bus. I hadn't seen him come on and hadn't noticed what he was carrying. If I hadn't folders on my mind, I may not have paid any attention!

I hope this post can be helpful and does not seem as a slight to either bike. I really did try to give
these bikes a good chance and feel I've been fair in my analysis.

- Any results?
- Do you think the T could be fitted with the B's fenders?
- Could the B's fenders handle Greenspeed Scorchers? Point of reference: they just *barely* fit with the T's front fender.

Interesting: I'd had exactly the opposite experience. Strongly expected the B to have a smoother ride because of its suspension, but found the T to be somewhat better in testing. On cobblestone brick and dirt and pavement. Tires maybe? I'm over 200. I brought someone along -- much much lighter -- and he had the same experience. But given that it's got suspension, I'm willing to believe our experience with the B, smoothness-wise, was a fluke.

By no means is the Tikit uncomfortable. I believe people have said the Scorchers on the Tikit at low pressure ride very comfortably though I did not have the chance to try out that setup unfortunately.
Likewise, a Thudbuster seatpost may provide more shock absorption.

I've read other experiences as well that have called the Brompton's suspension too "spongey" so I guess it depends on personal preference.

After this weekend, I may be closer to 200. I really lived well in San Francisco!

I have a personal preference for the Tikit over the Brompton when it comes to ride quality. Just chiming in for the count.

Jur is right: It's apple vs. orange. I like both and am glad we have fruit variety to choose from but where is the banana and the pineapple? I like them, too.

I don't think you lose out with a hub gear at all. First of all, I don't think your pedaling is propelling the bike much when shifiting a derailleur, it's moving the chain instead. So although it feels like your extra pedaling is doing something it's really just wasting energy, whereas holding your stroke doesn't waste anything. Second of all, a derailleur forces you to pedal with the brakes on to shift down when slowing or stopping (and what could be less efficient than pedaling with the brakes on?). Third of all you really don't have to hold your stroke at all because hub gears shift so much more quickly than derailleurs. Just slip the shift into the dead spot of your stroke (it comes with practice).

However, I agree that the Brompton gearing system in particular is not so good because it uses an involved shifting process similar to a front/rear derailleur as opposed to the usual simply ordered shifting process for most hub gears.

Just my humble opinion (although the tikit is definitely more suited to fans of derailleurs).

You're right. I just measured my Brompton's and it came out to be about 62 mm. That excludes the Shimano "long reach" brakes but the Tektro R556 or Rivendell "Silver" brakes are dual-pivots with 55-73 mm reach. The latter two are quite easily available (Rivendell, Harris Cyclery, etc) and are reasonably priced at <$100 for a pair. Nevertheless, as I've mentioned, these may not work because the Brompton brake has its cable route up from the bottom to clamp at the upper arm instead of the other way around like almost all other brakes. Regardless, Brompton OEM brakes are available and aren't terribly expensive at about $40 per.

Actually, that's not entirely true. At least the handlebar, cables, levers and shifters are standard items or standard S-A items. They're not Bromton-unique. The suspension and brakes are unique though.

The drivetrain is a more interesting topic. While the Brompton's 110 mm rear hub doesn't lend itself to quick replacement, what really needs to be looked at is the entire wheel. Neither the Brompton nor the Tikit's rear wheel are easily replaceable. The 349 mm ERD rim is odd and the spoke have odd lengths. If you're out in Timbuktu with a busted rear hub, Tikit or Brompton, you can't slap on any random hub, standard-width or otherwise, to get going.

The stock Brompton crank is Brompton-unique but the bottom bracket shell isn't. Thus, you can just slap any appropriate standard crank with an English BB of the appropriate spindle length and you're done. This isn't different than replacing the crank on any other bike, and it's certainly not like finding replacements for those early 90's Merlin mountain bikes with their crazy press-in cartridge bearing BBs! :)

They're amazing, but when testing I was at the time riding with the stock Marathons. BTW: I've not heard if the B can take the Scorchers. If it can, Brompton owners should upgrade immediately.

I choose my words poorly, part of the reason for "abominable" was thinking about the complexities of changing the wheel w/ a hub gear.

I found the Brompton's gearing works well if you have a long incline or long descent. Where it became less than ideal was when I was making rapid adjustments. I felt out of sync having to pedal to change cogs, then stop pedaling to up a hub gear and then pedal to shift back to the easier cog.

Then we have to reverse the process for going downhill!

If the Brompton had all hub gears that'd be fine or if we could shift the hub gear while pedaling that would be even better. Before this test ride, I was unaware of that limitation!

On a Tikit or bike w/ a derailleur, my feet keep doing what they're doing and it's a rather simple wrist movement up or down for each gear. I'm not a cadence machine, but it's much less disruptive than the Brompton.

Perhaps there is some better way of making these adjustments that comes w/ more experience?

As others have pointed out, the original comparison shot is very misleading.

Here's one from Anatoly, who has also done a very good comparison write-up.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1258548518

Good point, the combination of derailleur and hub gear is frustrating, especially on the Brompton where in order to cycle through the progression of gears you can only shift one small step on the derailleur before you need to shift it down again and do a large step on the hub gear.

I still don't understand why people keep saying this. The shot you give here is the worst case shot, but every case is not the worst case. You have to figure in life that particular dimension will only matter some of the time, not all of the time, and that typically the dimensions of importance will be more akin to the shot given by the OP (which is not even the best case).

True that if you have some particular nook the bike needs to fit in then every case could be the worst case, but even then it's possible to have a nook where the tikit will fit and the Brompton might not (for example, perhaps the column of space occupied when rolling the tikit or the inside of a french horn case :p ). On the other hand, rectangular suitcases are rather ubiquitous and the Brompton's dimensions are well suited to that, but I still think it's misleading to imply that the profile shot above is the most candid one. The first time I saw a folded Brompton in the flesh I was quite surprised by how large it was and in particular how similar in overall presence of size it was to other folders.

Everything you say about the Brompton 6 speed shifting is true. I don't think there's any different way of shifting to make it any better.

Having said that, the cumbersome shifting really doesn't bother me that much. I don't expect to ride aggressively on the B. It's for commuting or going to the store. I'm sitting up on my M 'bars, enjoying the scenery and the bike. An extra step in shifting simply doesn't bother me under those circumstances.

OTOH, I take my Tikit out on aggressive rides all the time. Up hills, fast, long distance. Good shifting is important under those circumstances.

If you're not riding agreesively then why do you even need 6 speeds? If I had a Brompton it would either be a 2 speed, a 3 speed, or modified for an 8 speed.

Well, I did this loop on my Brompton 2 weekends ago - http://ridewithgps.com/routes/12281#

800 ft. of climbing, some sections with 10, 11% grades. I like my knees too much to want to do that with a one or two speed. I let my friend ride the Tikit.

I think we all have different definitions of "aggressive" also.