I don't think you lose out with a hub gear at all. First of all, I don't think your pedaling is propelling the bike much when shifiting a derailleur, it's moving the chain instead. So although it feels like your extra pedaling is doing something it's really just wasting energy, whereas holding your stroke doesn't waste anything. Second of all, a derailleur forces you to pedal with the brakes on to shift down when slowing or stopping (and what could be less efficient than pedaling with the brakes on?). Third of all you really don't have to hold your stroke at all because hub gears shift so much more quickly than derailleurs. Just slip the shift into the dead spot of your stroke (it comes with practice).

However, I agree that the Brompton gearing system in particular is not so good because it uses an involved shifting process similar to a front/rear derailleur as opposed to the usual simply ordered shifting process for most hub gears.

Just my humble opinion (although the tikit is definitely more suited to fans of derailleurs).

You're right. I just measured my Brompton's and it came out to be about 62 mm. That excludes the Shimano "long reach" brakes but the Tektro R556 or Rivendell "Silver" brakes are dual-pivots with 55-73 mm reach. The latter two are quite easily available (Rivendell, Harris Cyclery, etc) and are reasonably priced at <$100 for a pair. Nevertheless, as I've mentioned, these may not work because the Brompton brake has its cable route up from the bottom to clamp at the upper arm instead of the other way around like almost all other brakes. Regardless, Brompton OEM brakes are available and aren't terribly expensive at about $40 per.

Actually, that's not entirely true. At least the handlebar, cables, levers and shifters are standard items or standard S-A items. They're not Bromton-unique. The suspension and brakes are unique though.

The drivetrain is a more interesting topic. While the Brompton's 110 mm rear hub doesn't lend itself to quick replacement, what really needs to be looked at is the entire wheel. Neither the Brompton nor the Tikit's rear wheel are easily replaceable. The 349 mm ERD rim is odd and the spoke have odd lengths. If you're out in Timbuktu with a busted rear hub, Tikit or Brompton, you can't slap on any random hub, standard-width or otherwise, to get going.

The stock Brompton crank is Brompton-unique but the bottom bracket shell isn't. Thus, you can just slap any appropriate standard crank with an English BB of the appropriate spindle length and you're done. This isn't different than replacing the crank on any other bike, and it's certainly not like finding replacements for those early 90's Merlin mountain bikes with their crazy press-in cartridge bearing BBs! :)

They're amazing, but when testing I was at the time riding with the stock Marathons. BTW: I've not heard if the B can take the Scorchers. If it can, Brompton owners should upgrade immediately.

I choose my words poorly, part of the reason for "abominable" was thinking about the complexities of changing the wheel w/ a hub gear.

I found the Brompton's gearing works well if you have a long incline or long descent. Where it became less than ideal was when I was making rapid adjustments. I felt out of sync having to pedal to change cogs, then stop pedaling to up a hub gear and then pedal to shift back to the easier cog.

Then we have to reverse the process for going downhill!

If the Brompton had all hub gears that'd be fine or if we could shift the hub gear while pedaling that would be even better. Before this test ride, I was unaware of that limitation!

On a Tikit or bike w/ a derailleur, my feet keep doing what they're doing and it's a rather simple wrist movement up or down for each gear. I'm not a cadence machine, but it's much less disruptive than the Brompton.

Perhaps there is some better way of making these adjustments that comes w/ more experience?

As others have pointed out, the original comparison shot is very misleading.

Here's one from Anatoly, who has also done a very good comparison write-up.

http://www.bikeforums.net/attachment...1&d=1258548518

Good point, the combination of derailleur and hub gear is frustrating, especially on the Brompton where in order to cycle through the progression of gears you can only shift one small step on the derailleur before you need to shift it down again and do a large step on the hub gear.

I still don't understand why people keep saying this. The shot you give here is the worst case shot, but every case is not the worst case. You have to figure in life that particular dimension will only matter some of the time, not all of the time, and that typically the dimensions of importance will be more akin to the shot given by the OP (which is not even the best case).

True that if you have some particular nook the bike needs to fit in then every case could be the worst case, but even then it's possible to have a nook where the tikit will fit and the Brompton might not (for example, perhaps the column of space occupied when rolling the tikit or the inside of a french horn case :p ). On the other hand, rectangular suitcases are rather ubiquitous and the Brompton's dimensions are well suited to that, but I still think it's misleading to imply that the profile shot above is the most candid one. The first time I saw a folded Brompton in the flesh I was quite surprised by how large it was and in particular how similar in overall presence of size it was to other folders.

Everything you say about the Brompton 6 speed shifting is true. I don't think there's any different way of shifting to make it any better.

Having said that, the cumbersome shifting really doesn't bother me that much. I don't expect to ride aggressively on the B. It's for commuting or going to the store. I'm sitting up on my M 'bars, enjoying the scenery and the bike. An extra step in shifting simply doesn't bother me under those circumstances.

OTOH, I take my Tikit out on aggressive rides all the time. Up hills, fast, long distance. Good shifting is important under those circumstances.

If you're not riding agreesively then why do you even need 6 speeds? If I had a Brompton it would either be a 2 speed, a 3 speed, or modified for an 8 speed.

Well, I did this loop on my Brompton 2 weekends ago - http://ridewithgps.com/routes/12281#

800 ft. of climbing, some sections with 10, 11% grades. I like my knees too much to want to do that with a one or two speed. I let my friend ride the Tikit.

I think we all have different definitions of "aggressive" also.

I think that one or two folks with Bromptons on the YAK group said that the Scorchers do not fit on a Brompton. But that is a pretty fuzzy memory.

Google finds nothing. :( If true, it probably also means no Brompton fenders for the Tikit too. Awwww. SesameCrunch, did you do any tests?

OK, finally got a chance to compare the two.

The Brompton's fenders definitely will within the Tikit. Lots of clearance. You will have to fashion some of the hardware pieces because of the difference in bolt locations.

As for the Scorchers, I don't have them. But the clearance between the fenders and tires on both bikes are roughly the same. So, if they fit your Tikit, they should fit the Brompton.

I just searched BromptonTalk. According to those guys, fitting Scorchers is no-can-do. There is a long chain of posts but here is a decent summary.

"I think these are the nominal widths when inflated, but that's
not the problem. The Brompton frame's minimum clearance is at
the bridge across the chainstays, and the Scorcher's diameter
is (AFAIK) a few mm too big to fit at this point.

I believe the Scorcher can go in the front forks without trouble.

Actually the bridge on my SP is worn and rusted through, so
I'm thinking of reshaping and reinforcing it to give extra
tyre room and to restore some of its strength (though I don't
think it's a very highly stressed part...)"

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group.../message/36338

Just sayin for all the hassle it is to shift I don't think I'd bother. Even on my derailleur equipped bike apart from testing/playing with it the front derailleur has only been used once, on a group ride, when I was too embarrassed to possibly put a foot down on a really steep hill (though after all the faffing about, shifting all the way up on the RD and down on the FD and again in reverse after the crest, I think I would have been faster even if I did lose balance in a higher gear). Can't wait to finish my wheel build for that bike to convert it to IGH.

If this isn't a highly stressed part you have to wonder why Brompton doesn't give more clearance by shaping it differently. I mean, I don't see how it could possibly affect the size of the fold, especially if the tube were simply crimped a few mm.

You got me. Later in that thread the individual did the modification but discovered the larger tire interfered with the fold.

I find it interesting that no one has yet commented on how the Brompton and Tikit measure up with regards to carrying things--don't any of you use your bicycle to commute, buy groceries, or run errands?

The key measures in this category would be: how much cargo capacity, can standard bike bags be used (panniers, rack bags, etc.) rather than special bags designed uniquely for this bike, and how well does the bike ride when semi- to fully-loaded?

That's really too bad: the Scorcher TR is IMHO easily the best 349 tire right now. Happily pounding Rome cobblestone on them right now

Definitely think the Brompton has the advantage here because it provides a stable base while folded on which you can load the front bag. Although, it does kind of irk me that the rear rack can't really be used as a rear rack because it's a stand for the folded bike and a heavy one at that.

I don't think standard bike bags are much of a plus because I don't think they're very good cargo solutions to begin with and are particularly ill suited to smaller wheels. Bags and stuff aren't like other parts which need to be replaced as they wear.

I find the Tikit to be very capable in this regard with a front rack and an Ortlieb pannier. I don't have the rear rack so I can't comment on that, but I don't think it would be possible to use a rear rack and pannier while shopping. If you're going on a quick run to the grocery, the front pannier is ideal. No need to get a basket, just stuff everything in the pannier and unload when you get to the checkout. When you're done... stuff the groceries back into the pannier and ride away. I've done this several times with mine.

Here's a video showing off the technique...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSSgkcWqR6I

That said, the Brompton has several bags specifically made for it. I don't have any experience with them, but I would assume that it could be used in a similar fashion... with specially made handlebar bag.

I couldn't find a video of someone shopping with the handlebar bag, but this video shows how someone would leave the handlebars up while rolling the bike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUfSJ1sG--c

Without any experience on the Brompton, I can't say which method is better overall. All I can say is that I had no problems using my Tikit as a shopper. OK... one problem. In Chicago, my supermarket used revolving doors and they weren't fun to navigate with a folder. I often opted to use the handicap entrance.

--sam

The tikit has several options: a rear rack (which everyone oughta get anyway, it makes the bike much stabler when folded), a one-sided front rack, and a two-sided front rack, various trailers, and assorted standard handlebar and seatmast bags etc.

• The two-sided front rack can take any standard panniers. See picture. As a low-trail bike, the Tikit handles balanced panniers with aplomb.
  
• The one-sided front rack (which I have) can take one standard pannier. However since it's only one sided, the bike is unruly when loaded down heavily. Still, I've ridden home with a Detours Teeco filled with four large glass bottles of water, so there. The tikit can be folded and wheeled about with a pannier attached to the one-sided front rack (or to the right side of the double rack). You can shop with the tikit and a pannier, though in the hard tile of a grocery store the Brompton's shopping solution is less unwieldy.
  
• The rear rack takes standard boxes of all kinds (even this) but is too low to take standard panniers, and they'd cause heel strikes anyway. However it can take two Detours Teeco bags very well in this configuration. Bike Friday recommends the Teeco for the front rack but it's not particularly good there. But on the thick insulated rear rack, it's a champ. I also have a handlebar bag (an Axiom Adriondack) permanently attached to the right side of my rear rack and it works great: and also it fits between the wheels when folded. See various pictures. I've had little difficulty riding the bike with the rear rack loaded down, but obviously the front double rack is more optimal. Bike Friday was rumored to be coming out with a standard pannier-mountable rear rack for the tikit which didn't interfere with the fold, but this never happened.
  
• All the trailer stuff is standard, though Bike Friday famously has a suitcase which doubles as a trailer (another picture).
  
• The tikit can take practically any handlebar or seatmast bag, with a lot of space for them too. Because the tikit's seatmast folds rather than collapses, you can keep the various bags on the seat (and handlebars) when folded.

Sadly, while hunting this down, I discovered that I have now posted 371 times. I need to get a life.

The front bag on a Brompton -- maybe not the S-type -- can fit a lot of crap in there. A tikit with the dual front rack can fit two panniers on the front. Just on my own wild @ss speculation, I would think that the Brompton bag could fit more than two small panniers.

But either can carry enough stuff for a commute.

SC should be able to answer this. He had the Merc with the front bag longer than me.

Unfortunately, this metric can only get worse. I'm a little past four thousand.

wow! 800ft of climbing with your brompton! do you have a 3 speed or 6 speed? and when you are climbing the biggest grade with your friend(riding a Tikit), I guess your friend was much easier to pedal up hill than you, right? is it really not hurting your knee with Brompton's gearing? I have Brompton 6 speed and feel it is not enough for this kind of climbing! suggestion? or maybe I should do more training on climbing? :)

I have a 6 speed. I think the Tikit has lower gearing. Feels that way anyway, that's why I let my friend ride it. He doesn't ride as much as I do.

On my Tikit, I routinely ride it up to my kid's school at 1800 ft. elevation. From my house at 70 ft. elevation. Takes about 1 hour and 20 minutes. I love the look on the faces of the teachers and parents when they find out where I rode from. :D

Amazing You! ! ! 1800 ft ! ! !
so if we talking about climbing 500 ft elevation with Brompton 6 speed, you think it's gearing is enough?

I'm sorry, but the answer to your question truly depends on you and how steep the inclines are. I don't know you and your riding background.

I do know that low gear on the standard 6 speed Brompton is about 34", and is very comfortable for me in climbing hills up to 10% grade. That gearing is as low as you'll find on most road bike, but not as low as most mountain bikes.

On multimodal tour with the tikit.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3662/...aff470bd_m.jpg
That's an elderly Custom Cycle Fitments saddle bag attached to the loops on the frame of the Persons saddle.

This shot was taken last spring, before BF sent me the hand-grip blocking strut upgrade. I don't think I'd load the bike like this now as I can no longer grasp the folded bike firmly enough to do a front wheel roll around with it loaded like this. With the 2010 loop handle it should be fine.

tcs

According to the numbers given by Mr. Ritchie in an interview, Dahon now sells 40x as many folding bikes a year.

tcs

Several posters have awarded the tikit superior marks for it's 8-speed rear derailleur drive train. I was disapointed in my Model-T's factory set-up.

In the 1920s bicycle riders and manufacturers discovered that with only a rear derailleur a bicycle is prone to tossing the chain. By 1930 they had solved this problem* but unfortunately BF didn't get the memo. Even though I understand the issue and its causes and have ridden an Alex Moulton bike that has a rear-derailleur-only drive train for the last quarter century with very few issues, I found my tikit tossed the chain to the inside consistantly, jamming it down into the frame and folding bits in a nasty way. Because of the design of the tikit, standard fixes for this old problem are difficult to implement.

I eventually grew weary of this and converted the bike to IGH.

tcs

*Fred DeLong took some high speed photos of rear-derailleur-only chain tossing back in the 1960s which illustrated why it happens.