As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've been thinking about selling my Xootr Swift and picking up a used Brompton.

I thought i'd post a couple of thoughts and observation here now that i've had the chance to ride a Brompton on a 25 mile jaunt this weekend. This isn't meant to be an objective review of either bike, but rather a compilation of my impressions and considerations as I've thought about selling Swift and getting a Brompton. Maybe somebody will find it useful.

My motivation for considering the swap:

I'm not doing many rides over 15 miles these days, but bicycles are my main mode of transport. I'm either pulling the kids in a trailer or doing some multi-modal traveling as I go to meetings around town. I was using the Swift for both duties until about a month ago when I noticed that when the trailer was fully loaded with kids and groceries the axle hitch was pulling the rear wheel out of alignment. I could have tried to engineer a different hitch, but hooking the trailer up to my old hybrid was much easier. So, I'm now only using the Swift for running to meetings and other multi-modal travel. It got me to thinking if it wouldn't be a good idea to swap the Swift out for something with a more compact fold. I figured there would be tradeoffs involved, and I was right.

I'm not going to get too much into the details of each bike here. There's plenty out there on the google and in the forums about each. Instead, I'm going to be talking about the differences I found between the bikes that I found significant for my situation. It's also important to note that the Brompton I test rode was an old mk2 circa 1995.

The test ride:

I've used the Swift for almost 4 years now. I've commuted on it, towed kids in a trailer with it, used it for weekend blasts in country roads, packed it in a suitcase and flown to America with it, and pootled with it. I've ridden it in all weathers. (including ice with studded tyres). The longest ride I've done on it was around 50 miles, but the average has probably been in the region of 7-8 miles. It's been a great all-round bike.and Without a doubt, the best thing about it is how adaptable it is to different styles of riding with just a few changes to tyres and handlebar configurations. It certainly doesn't ride much like a folder, more like a mini-velo, I suspect.

I've ridden the Brompton a grand total of 25 miles during a trip that involved taking the train from Glasgow to Edinburgh doing a little city riding, canal paths (paved, dirt, and gravel surfaces), and a couple bits of rolling hills in the countryside. It was a pretty windy day, with a lovely mix of sun and heavy rainshowers. All in all, it was a bit of a sampling of what I'd use the bike for.

The fold:

The Swift is easier. The Brompton is smaller. In use I think the smaller fold of the Brompton trumps the Swift. In particular, on the ride back from Edinburgh to Glasgow, the train was pretty crowded. If I had the Swift with me, I would have had to fold it up and stand with with it at the doors of the train (As I've done a bunch of times in the past). The Brompton fit rather nicely in the luggage rack of the train, so I was able to take a seat. Either would have been fine, and if I was on a full size bike, I wouldn't have gotten on the train at all. The Brompton just allowed the journey to be a bit more pleasurable.

Swift owners (myself included) tend to point out that the Swift's fold while tall, is very thin. If you use folding pedals, this is certainly true and is very handy for hopping on and off shorter train journeys, keeping the bike in hallways, etc. The Brompton isn't that much wider though.

Anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that the Brompton wins the folding contest. No surprise there.

How they ride:

The Swift has a reputation for being a fast, stiff, frame. Indeed it is. It simply rides like a full size bike - and a lovely full size bike at that. The steering is quick, but nothing to extreme. When climbing or mashing out of the saddle, nothing flexes. Very solid bike. Depending on the rest of how the bike is setup, this can contribute to a certain harshness in the ride. Personally, I found with Schwalbe Big Apple tyres, and a sprung Brooks, the Swift was nice and comfy.

The Brompton is a different beast. The cockpit is much smaller and the bars are pretty narrow. The steering was way more responsive than the Swift's already quick handling. No big deal, but I did have to concentrate a bit more to keep the bike in a straight line. Once I got up to a decent speed on a decent with a crosswind the responsiveness of steering was definitely at the front of my mind! The close cockpit meant is was much harder to "tuck" down when riding into the wind. The biggest difference that I found though was when I was climbing. The Brompton's stem and handlebars were noticeably flexy as I was chugging up the hills. I felt it too when taking off from lights, etc. I'm not a very strong or aggressive rider, so the flex isn't a huge issue for me.

When I was riding the Brompton on less than ideal surfaces (canal path strewn with loose stones, wet cobbles, loose gravel) steering got very squirrely. I suspect this mostly due to the narrow, high pressure tyres on the Brompton, combined with the quick steering geometry. I never felt like I was going to come off, but I did feel like I needed to take it nice 'n slow.

The other thing I noticed was that with the rear elastomer, the Brompton tended to 'bounce' a little at higher cadences. I suspect this has more to do with my lack of smoothness in my pedalling technique, but it doesn't happen on the Swift. Again, not a big deal for me.

All in all, I'd say there is nothing in the Swift's ride that reflects that it's a folder. It just rides like a normal bike.

The Brompton rides like, well, a Brompton. It's no bad thing either. In fact for riding in town with traffic it would be my top choice among all the bikes I've ridden, except for one little thing…

Brakes:

The Swift ships with V-brakes. They do a very nice job of stopping the bike in a hurry under most circumstances. I converted mine to drum brakes, and they to stop the bike in a hurry just fine, thank you very much. (Drums have the added advantage of not being affected by weather. Very important in sunny Glasgow).

The brakes on the Brompton ? Gulp. The bike I was riding had an upgrade to dual-pivot brakes a couple of years ago, but I still found myself lacking in confidence of stopping in time once the speed picked up a bit. When it got wet, the situation only got worse. If I were to keep the Brompton, I'd have to look into improving this situation as the first thing on the to-do list. As it stands right now, once the weather got wet, I can see my commute time getting longer as I would have to ride slow enough to keep my confidence in being able to stop in time when a car cuts me off, or a pedestrian walks in front of me.

Overall:

In my mind the Swift is a better performer as a bike. It goes better, climbs better, takes a wider range of tyres (can't put Marathon Winters or Big Apples on a Brompton), and stops MUCH better. It also happens to fold which means you can get on a train when the folks on 'regular' bike are stuck on the platform. It will fit in the boot of almost any car with no drama, and packs in a suitcase for air travel. Beyond it's utility, the thing is just plain fun to ride. If I had only one bike, it would be a Swift. End of story.

But, I don't only own one bike My mountain bike style hybrid can take over a lot of the work the Swift had done. Trailer pulling, winter riding, etc. It's a versatile, if uninspired ride. This means my folding bike can be a bit more specialist.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the Brompton is the better overall transportation device. Its small fold means I'd be more likely to take it along in more situations where I might have reconsidered bringing the Swift. More importantly, when I'm riding the Brompton, I'm having just as good a time as I do on the Swift. The fact that I'm going slower doesn't seem to matter too much. I`d probably feel differently if I had a need to ride faster, or if I was riding on loose surfaces a bunch.

Now I just need to sort those brakes , and I think I'll be happy with the swap.

The flex in the Brompton stem/head tube bothers me. It's slightly more pronounced than in a Dahon Curve with handlebars at the same height from floor despite the Curve stem/handlepost being longer.
Sounds like you've already got the Fibrax brake pad that was part of the 2008 brake improvement. I upgraded recently and now I find the braking OK but still nowhere near as good as V brakes. This is partly to do with the levers, I think, being positioned wrongly (on the M type). One's first two fingers are right next to the lever fulcrum as the grips are so short, so one is forced to use 3 fingers for hard braking. Nothing wrong with that but it's not optimal, and it's a design issue easily rectified. I.e. there's no excuse as far as I can see.

I've changed the gear system as I couldn't live with 3 speeds and I'm not keen on a dual-shifter 6 speed system.

I've found the ride surprisingly comfortable which I think is a lot to do with the frame being fairly flexy. The suspension does bob but it also soaks up bumps really effectively, so no complaints there. I find it pretty much on par with the fat tyre plus thudbuster combination on my Dahon. So I wonder how easy it would be for Brompton to reinforce the necessary areas to mitigate the flex that occurs when pulling on the handlebars whilst retaining flex in the areas that make the ride comfortable, as I'd guess a fair amount of that comes from the top tube as well as head tube and stem.

Weight is a problematic area, I think. The shape of the bike makes it as easy to carry (in most situations) as my Curve SL despite that being 1.5 kg lighter. However, weight savings are made via plastic componentry/poor quality componentry, so upgrades add weight. E.g. the alloy right hand pedal is a piece of junk but extremely light.

Of course I should say with a few improvements it'd be the best bike ever made due to the folding design being so good.

I'm not too worried about weight. As long as I can keep it under 30 lbs, I'll be able to carry it up several flights of stairs which is all I really care about on a folder.

I can't decide if the flex in the handlebar / stem is something that I should worry about. Since Brompton reworked the M-bars, I don't think I've seen anything about failure on these bits. As long as the flex doesn't make it break or wear out prematurely, I can live with it.

I'm curious, what are you using for a gearing system?

I've ended up with something not much different from the older 5 speed Bromptons. My first folder was a Dahon Vitesse D5 with Sturmey Archer X-RF5 hub, which was my first experience of hub gears. I rode that for a couple of years and generally found the gearing very good. When I researched 7 or 8 speed hubs I found they were much heavier and I concluded the S-RF5 to be the best combination of performance and weight available at around 1100 grams. I couldn't really justify the expense of buying a new S-RF5 hub for the Brompton so I decided to use a X-RF5 that I'd picked up on ebay (intended as a spare for the Dahon). It's a bit heavier but still much lighter than 7 or 8 speed hubs. At the moment I'm using it with a thumb shifter. . . I thought I'd give it a go as it's cheap, fits on the M bar and I've heard favourable things about thumb shifters on these forums. Having tried it for a couple of weeks I've concluded that it just doesn't make sense to me, it has none of the immediacy of a grip shift. Perhaps it's not so bad with a 3 speed but with 5 you have to keep a mental note of what gear you're in so that you know where the shifter will be and what sort of hand movement is required. Pointless. So I'll give a trigger shifter a go and if I don't get along with that I'll try to make space on the M bar for a grip / twist shifter.
The problem with my hub is that it's no longer available, Sturmey have switched to a wider-ratio version that's like the AW but with an extra high and low gear. I find the jumps way too large, and the newer shifters aren't compatible with the older hub. So spares are limited and very expensive.

Any pics? The Brompton I'm considering has the old s5/2 hub. I'm considering changing the setup if that hub proves problematic.

None to hand. I'll try to get some. . . it was my very first wheelbuild: I made the mistake of not taking into account where the valve would be and it ended up in an awkward to reach spot. Ooops. But I'm not about to rebuild the wheel again because of that.

I also had a load of grief regarding the axle being too long. . . modifying bromptons can be tricky, I've discovered. But it's all ended well.

Another reason for me sticking with this hub is that I'm now so familiar with it, having gotten my head around the basic SA 3 speed design and this type of 5 speed. I've serviced 3 individual hubs, the oldest of which is probably about 4 years old and judging by the rest of the bike would have had a lot of abuse when I picked it up second-hand. None of the 3 hubs show any significant signs of wear in the internals. A bike shop had told me that they should be serviced and re-greased every 18 months. I think that's nonsense: the internal grease stays put and there's nothing that needs servicing beyond keeping the cable tension and cones/bearings correctly adjusted.

From what I've read it appears Brompton dropped the 5 speed hub because Sturmey Archer went bust. I don't think the 6 speed system is evolutionary, I'd guess that one of the mean reasons for not going back to the 5 speed is that it requires precise cable adjustment, and that may have been too much of a headache for a lot of people.

Thanks this review bendembroski! In my research, these two bikes are my favorite and its no wonder they are hard to find for sale used.

The Brompton front bag mount , with a bunch of stuff packed in my big Touring bag.
actually improves the sense of stability, steering .

[AW3+ Schlumpf mountain drive crank, for a wide range 6 speed,
18 to 80 GI]

Do you reckon there's scope to improve the steering fietsbob, or is the current geometry the best solution given the fold? I read the recent thread on 'trail' and looking at the brompton it appears increasing the trail would move the front wheel up and back whilst folded. I never quite figured out if the front wheel was supposed to touch the ground on the rack-less models.

There is some ways in which the small wheel size makes quick steering just part of the Physics.

VBQ goes on about how front loaded Porteur bikes with 650B wheels handle better
than a regular road bike with the same rack added to it,
once the 50 pounds of the latest Paris Match has to be rushed across town to the Kiosk of the News Agent.

Short trail in a small wheel may be quite a different % if it were scaled up to a bigger wheel.

A Bike Friday Pocket Llama has a high BB , but on rutted rocky trails ,
a bigger wheel diameter will still plough along better than the 406 wheel.

But they wont pack into a suitcase, so there is some tradeoffs
if the trip is starting out from an Airport ..

Brompton's fold is more about the front hinge, in the main tube, than the fork trail.

The 349 wheel, without some major engineering, will always result in a very low trail bike. Typically, front load bikes (porteurs) have relatively low trail. So it is not surprising that a Brompton ... or even my NWT ... generally handles better with a front load.

Swift rider very much liking this thread...

+ I'm thinking Pneumatic trail is smaller just because of wheel size.
contact patch of a 1,5" wide 650b vs 349 1 3/8 Brommy/Tikit.
406 Swift/Friday somewhere in between.

I dont understand your comments on the flex on the Brompton. Perhaps its that i have a S-Type but i do have a Aber Halo riser to increase height therefore should flex more i would think due to leverage and taller stem than M-Type.
I owned 2 Dahons before the local dealer, and in the end Dahon themselves really got beyond rude with me,another story. Perhaps if id known of Thor at the time but again another story.
Anyway Dahons got what i call flex,Brompton dont even come close to that. Even with the stem riser i have little if any flex. And my bars are only prolly about 1" lower than M-Type with the riser installed.

I rode my 20" Dahon today having been riding the Brompton and there's no comparison, the Dahon is much stiffer and therefore a lot sportier. The only reason a 20" Dahon might feel flexy is if the hinges aren't adjusted properly.

I've wondered if the Brompton 2004 hinge change increased stiffness but from what I've heard that's not the case. I don't think the flex is coming from the hinges. I guess I ought to ride another Brompton and also check my bike over carefully. The headset isn't loose. Perhaps there's some play in the frame hinge that translates to the handlebars, though I doubt it.

One thing though, any change of length of stem/handlepost tends to have a very noticeable effect on flex, I've found. So even though the S stem plus aberhallo is only 2 or 3 cm lower than an M bar I'd imagine that'd make a significant difference.

Yes i would agree with that above, im thinking alot of it has to do with the style of bars,i actually use the Aber-- to get a little more distance to stretch out a bit but the flat bars sure dont seem very flexy. My bike is a 2009 bought new, and i dont use it daily(prolly twice a week for pooteling) so it doesnt have tons of miles on it could be another reason. Things may not be to worn yet.

.. adding setback to the saddle, with a saddle adapter pin, on my Brompton,
extended seat post, so the arm pressure on the bars is light..
then there is the gearing issue, if it's low enough, you spin up the hills
so you don't have to pull hard against the bars..

Mk2, AW3 + a 2 speed Mountain drive crankset.. it's hilly here..

.. older 2 cable/lever 5 speed narrows gap between 2.3.4,

newer 5 speed adds 1, 5 to the outside range. 2& 4 are the 3/4, 4/3 of the 3 speed.

I've got the same 5 speed hub gear on both bikes, geared more or less the same. I just powered up a particular long hill in middle gear on the Dahon, something I've never done before (usually in gear 1 or 2, spinning away). I guess it's the training I've had from the Brompton and Curve; switching back to the Vitesse everything is that bit quicker and easier.

I think it's time for me to sell the Curve.

All this talk of flex on the Brompton: Before I pull the trigger on buying this thing, th is the flex in the handlebars / stem / whatever going to be a structural problem ? Or, is it just a feel thing? If it's the former, I might reconsider. The latter, and I'll just live with it as one of the compromises I'll make to get the smaller fold.

Good question actually: do the pins/bolts (whatever they're called) in the hinge wear over time at all and require rebuilding?

The stock brompton foam grips might be giving one a sense of flex. I have an M-Type and I do notice some flex on the bar but nothing that bothers me. After replacing the stock foam grips with ergons, it felt like the bars flexed less. Again I was not bothered by the flex even before I replaced the foam grips. Another thing to consider is the "suspension"... the regular suspension block has more give than the firm one.

I would categorize the brompton's ride as springy not flexy... this is in comparison to my aluminum and carbon framed road bikes. My aluminum bike's ride borders on being harsh, the carbon bikes are smooth but firm, the brompton is springy... just right for my commute.