I like the color scheme of the folded Curl a lot, but I think the color scheme of the unfolded curl looks like a cheap big box bike.

In my opinion, dahon company is disgracing herself by 'copying' brompton.
Curve sL, igh 8sp or 9sp capreo is a better 'working' bike.
Yet brompton still holds its mystique. The appeal is because it's made in england, and because it is expensive.
A lower price curve sL would reach a wider market..

well said +1!

There is no mystique to the Brompton. Like Bike Friday in Oregon, Brompton makes very good quality bikes for their purpose. Their brand is not purely based on mystique and 'made in Britain'. For example wealthier Asians in Singapore, Taiwan & South Korea appreciate its quality and fold. They don't just buy into British mystique, I'll give them far more credit than that. Their are some great inventors and designers in this country and I'd include Alex Moulton, Andrew Ritchie, Mark Sanders and James Dyson as just a few examples. A brand needs more than mystique to grow at 25-30% per year! And While I'm happy to buy a British product, I did not spend £750 on my original Brommie merely because it was made here! People buy it because of its fold, acceptably good ride and reliability. It's a great commuting bike, especially in urban areas and it has a payback. One can argue about some components being better or improved but the core frame and components are very durable. I have used the analogy of an IBM laptop keyboard. After decades it still has the best ergnomics on the market so why change it to a chiclet keyboard?

Dahon are entilted to benchmark the Brompton, it is nt a carbon copy like the Merc. I think the chain on the outside and Dahon Steve's points above sum up the shortcomings of a bike that should have promised much more. Dahon have made some very original bikes in their time just maybe too many models, that's all really!

I think companies are letting down consumers by not copying the Brompton fold. It's the best, but there's more to be done in terms of the implementation and that's where I'd like to see competition in the folding bike industry: refining the details are aspects pertaining to ride quality (which Brompton aren't concerned about since they have no direct competition).

Do you really feel Brompton parts are that poor a quality? I find the bike gives me few problems with original component parts or am I just lucky?

PS Do you really think Brompton are in a blue ocean position? I'd agree with you about the UK but not in some other markets. E.g. US and Bike Friday Tikit or the Strida in Asia?

Component quality seems fine-ish. Lots of people complain about the brake levers. . . they're sort of OK. I think the brakes are still under-powered.
My feeling about the bike is that I can't get over the amount of flex there is, I can't enjoy the bike as much as I think I would if there were some changes made, and it's certainly true that stiffness is a quality that a lot of people appreciate. Tern are trying to differentiate themselves from Dahon and other companies with regard to that aspect of the design. Dahon had already made steps in that direction. Once those (or similiar) design solutions are applied to a bike that folds like a Brompton then you have a superior product, assuming you retain other key characteristics like long-term reliability. Basically, my Dahon plus thudbuster rides better than my Brompton in most ways but that's not due to an inescapable compromise of the Brompton fold. In fact the rear suspension is a big advantage IMO for small wheels. But the Dahon will never be as useful as the fold is crude and other aspects badly thought-out. There's certainly potential for a next generation product but so far not the competitive scenario that'll bring it about.

My impression is that the problem is not with the levers but with the brake arms. Try this experiment, while stopping, press the front brake lever until the pads touch the rim. Keep pressing slowly and observe the brake arms. On my B I can see a clear flex that absorves the extra force. On our other bike, with low end V brakes, I see virtually no flex in the arms.

There is no disgrace in 'copying' Brompton. Was Toyota making a disgrace of itself when it copied GM? Was Samsung making a disgrace of itself when it copied Apple's design aesthetics and took up Android instead of making its own special OS from the start?

Did those two 'disgraceful' companies die a terrible death or are they laughing all the way to the bank? Maybe those posters should go back to using Nokia who stuck firmly to their guns till they were bought over by MS.

I'm just gobsmacked by how many people think the bicycle industry is some unique fish where integrating great and well-proven features is considered silly and uncreative.

Rather than innovating as an entire industry to move closer to the perfect bike, why anyone would want the rest of the industry to resist incorporating and improving existing great ideas is beyond me.

Did it take you two years to write that post?

Copying a distinctive idea or design feature, though unprotected, is an undisguised way of grabbing market share using ideas put into the market in the first place by innovative competitors. That happens all the time. Though it be standard practice for companies trying to grab customers, it remains a disgraceful practice. That said, I bought an Asus Zenbook. Afterwards I found out it was a copy of the Mac Air. I wasn't impressed.

So in other words, you'd rather be paying double or triple for a Mac(book) Air? I guess that's would be my textbook definition of a first-world problem.

In case you did not know, the recently crowned world #1 manufacturer of mobile phones is XiaoMi, a China-based company who sells cheap, low-to-mid-specced Android phones in a rather unique way. One of the guys hired to head its overseas expansion is an ex-Google VP, and they show no sign of slowing.

Few people are going to mourn if Apple or Samsung loses out because they blinked. The same should apply to Brompton.

There's a very good reason why copyright has a time limit. Being stubbornly subservient to the concept of it only serves to keep prices high and innovation low.

To be clear; I think we're discussing patent infringement (not copyright)?

In either case, how much longer does Brompton hold an active patent? Is it a design or utility patent (or both)?

They don't have active patents and the only prior copyright case that I'm aware of was won on the basis that their designs were straightforwardly cloned, i.e. with no further active input into the design process (to the extent that the manual illustrations were also stolen).

The Dahon bike takes the basic fold but rethinks every detail in line with Dahon's existing technology, and the frame is substantially different.

Brompton has employees that were born after their utility patent expired.

A Dutch court held in 2006 that Brompton has some sort of copyright on the curved top tube.

...a patent...

Yep, those are the rules of the game. If you don't like it, don't go into design work! Instead, improve the human condition by writing trashy novels and jingles for commercials, creative endeavors that can be legally protected for over a century. :)

I think that it is a way of improving the state of the art and a compliment to the person/people who came up with it.

If we took the view that a designer should never do something if it had already been done by someone else, there would only be one make of bicycle and one make of car etc.

That was my point. I'm sure most of us have different views of what constitutes "copying", but apparently my view is far more liberal than some others' here.

Much as I love my Brompton bikes, I'm treating them just like any business. If they want to stay ahead, they'd best be thinking out of the box now.

I doubt many of their potential customers will care about 'business ethics' if Dahon starts offering quality half-priced Brompton clones. After all, they have the manufacturing capability, marketing clout and customer base to make it happen.

And maybe that might be a win for all of us if Brompton really starts innovating again like it did when Andrew Ritchie first introduced that amazing fold.

I actually think the Curl is an improvement on the original Brompton design. It remains to be seen if the entire package will be as strong as, or have the total longevity, of a Brommie. I personally think it looks innovative,...but that IMO,...YMMV. ;)

It doesn't address the aspects which, for me, would could be substantially improved.

Jur, why don't we design a proper version?

Is the Curl in any danger of actually being produced any time soon?

When I was taking design classes, it was drilled into my head that design is only half the battle -- the other half is getting it into production and making as many as fast as you can before someone else comes along and copies your idea, cheaper. Contending a design copy is also dependent on one's ability to devote resources to litigation...

Dahon has R&D money and time into developing their design of the Curl, along with many other models. Knowing they will be copied, they continuously improve their line. Brompton seems to be continually refining their line, but I don't seem them doing the same level of R&D Dahon does...

I find it significant that Dahon wasn't able to make their initial attempt work. The S-shaped top tube was an attempt to get a compact fold without using the characteristic Brompton humpback tube. The slightly sideways fold-under is already used by Birdy. Then we have the Bike Friday fold-under which is more like the Birdy but further forwards yo put the back wheel next to the front, the front not being folded. So there we have the 4 main cases. Dahon could not find a way to make their idea work; their final attempt had the front planetary geared crankset. So that's why I find it significant that they finally adopted the hump-back top tube.

Dahon already have a huge market penetration; this is a customer grab, no mistake. It is blazingly obvious, and you can continue on about improvements, innovation etc, but that doesn't cover a plain old customer grab. I actually would not be surprised if Brompton have evaluated their legal options to this undisguised copy-and-grab.

Dahon innovated all these years ago with their sideways fold; there is no significant innovation here, just some minor tweaks.

I can't disagree it's not a customer grab, but this is business. For all we know, Dahon is running out of innovative ideas, and so is turning to what many consider the finest fold in the business. IMO they would be silly not to, and IMO again, everyone but Brompton (and Brompton resellers) might be better off for it.

There's only so many times one can reinvent the three-wheel car before they realize a four-wheel car is the way to go.

If you look at Dr. Hon's 1983 patent, you see a sideways fold, collapsing seat post and folding handle post. You also see the Terns, Downtubes, Citizens, Origamis, Oyamas, Melons, Giants and maybe three dozen other folding bike brands of today - no significant innovation, just minor tweaks. In some cases, companies build dimensional copies of Dahon's bikes, saving those companies market research, engineering, prototyping, testing and marketing.

Welcome to the real world where the big boys play for keeps.

...went back to their hotel room in Friedrichshafen and drank late into the night. ;)

Despite the video @ Eurobike, given the history of this model, I'll believe it when I see one riding down the street!

I'd luv to be the first person riding it in a YouTube video then,... :)

Maybe, maybe not. However, Soichiro Honda used to send his new engineers to museums, looking for good ideas that weren't properly or fully implemented. The Honda Super Cub, still in production after 57 years with 85,000,000+ built? It's based on the now forgotten Moto Guzzi Galletto which Mr. Honda 'discovered' on his European trip in the mid-1950s.

You run into sometimes complicated definitions of 'the best', 'the finest' or even 'couldn't make it work'. Still, despite genuinely enthusiastic fans of the bikes, one has to note that no other company seems to be copying the folds of Mobiky, BigFish, Strida...