Human_Amplifier

Interesting comments from Dahon on the 'copying' thing (youtube comments)..


Hi, and thanks for your comments. The Brompton folding bicycle is one of the most respected designs on the market today. However, the technology is between 30 - 40 years old, and much is borrowed from the likes of Diblasi, DAHON and others. In fact 98% of folding bikes today use at least one or more DAHON patents both legally or illegally. Legal is when the patent expires or is licensed. And this includes Brompton which uses the DAHON patented 45 degree folding handle bar. We would not use others patents illegally and whoever does so deserves to be taken to court for an answer. The history of technological improvements is built upon past technologies. It is a compliment to DAHON that so many companies have built upon our designs and patents. So the new Curl pays homage to the greats, and combines them to create the next generation of rear-wheel-flip models. Please also note that Bike Friday, Birdy, Oyama, and dozens of others, all use similar technology to Brompton, all add their own ideas, manufacturing techniques, and philosophy to the mix. And the pedals are ours, thank you.

Best regards, the DAHON Team

chagzuki

Nicely written.
But the pedals?! Surely they're Brompton.

chagzuki

I don't imagine this will ride better than a Brompton. The total amount of felt flex will probably be similar except it'll be the unnerving dead flex of aluminium instead of the springy, lively flex of steel. The head tube angle might be a little slacker and the steering therefore less nervous, but it looks to me that the rear stop thingy is too small to function as a suspension elastomer... presumably there's no rear suspension. The option to use 1.5" tyres is good; marathon racers are nice. However, I already run a greenspeed scorcher on the Brompton which is also 1.5"

tds101 

How about waiting for it to (finally!) be released before passing judgement. No reviews/user opinions equals nothing more than speculation. I'm personally interested, but only if it provides a high quality & stable ride, coupled with decent affordability. I won't pass judgment until it's hit the market.

chagzuki

It's speculation based on having owned a Dahon Curve and experiencing how the telescopic handlepost behaves when extended past a certain length (as it tends to be when coupled with small wheels). Wobbly.

2_i 

I'd say astoundingly convoluted writing. In the UTube video they only use the name of Brompton within a list of companies and in the writing quoted above they put the Brompton name into the context of copying from Dahon. By their own pedals they presumably mean that they bought them from Brompton with their own money .

smallwheeler

with that kind of talking point/ apologetic, it makes it official: dahon is fresh out of ideas.

i suspected as much when, for their 30th anniversary their "new" offerings consisted of the presto lite, a ten year old design and the jifo, which is the bipod mint.




coupled with josh hon walking away with a big chunk of the business including much of the R and D staff, the current developments are not a surprise.

interestingly, it was david hon himself who said in an interview following the successful conclusion to the criminal case against neobike in which dahon won and people went to prison:

“We feel a sense of gratification that after ten years of foot-dragging by the Taiwan legal system, some measure of justice has been served,” said Dr. David Hon, Dahon president.

“Technology is the lifeblood of [the] bicycle industry. Without technology and innovation, we would all be selling commodity products with little or no profit. We have over forty engineers and technicians in our R&D department and this court verdict gives us the faith to continue investing in this part of our business.”

in other words, if a company's investment in research, development, and innovation isn't protected legally, it would make no sense monetarily for them to pursue it.


the products in question in that court case:

energyandair

I have trouble understanding this widespread outpouring of abuse for Dahon.

Dahon's response seemed very reasonable to me.

The Curl design seems to be evolving into something very interesting and I hope one day to have the opportunity to try one out. Actually riding a bike design is a necessary part of understanding how successful the design has been, how it feels and how well it works for you.

I like the look of the fold demonstrated in the video but would have liked to see some form of road suspension on the front wheel. Stiffness, weight, strength, adjustability and quietness would all be of interest but are unknowns at this point.

As for the pedals, I couldn't see them well enough to be sure but I thought that they looked a little different from Brompton's. It sure would be good to have some more good choices in folding pedals.

ThorUSA

I like the bike. Obviously of course.
your Brommy fan boys need to calm down. In the last instance every folding bike looks the same.

There are very distinctive differences here, even if that silly pedal looks very similar, I would probably replace it with MKS anyhow. I would call that new pedal a marketing snafu as it obviously generates all kinds of bad blood. But its also shows that Dahon is tech driven and not marketing driven, which in my opinion is a good thing. Obviously marketing driven designs like from Specialized or Trek which are no longer Bicuycle companies but Marketing gurus would make my life as a dealer soo much easier, but to be honest I like technical innovation better after all.

Brompton is doing well and deservingly so, its a good product with a very loyal fan base. But it can be improved on ( same like Dahons or Terns, nothing is ever 100 % perfect )

With a combined marketshare of 0.4 % of all bicycles sold, the folding community needs to embrace new stuff and shouldnt worry so much about the pocketbooks of the owners of folding bike companies.

Having said that, the new Curl is and was a one off or prototype, and it will be a littl while until we see the real thing on the streets.

The success or failure will also highly dependend on the price it will be sold.

Thor

invisiblehand

ERTO 355 also has Big Apples if I'm not mistaken.

mconlonx

Kojak, Marathon, Marathon Racer, HS 159, Mad Mike, Black Jack, and Big Apple. The last four are 1.75-2.00 widths, so fitment might still be an issue depending on how much clearance there is in the fork and rear triangle...

smallwheeler

why obviously? because you are a dahon dealer. this just means that, as you have a monetary interest here, anything you say about this topic should prudently be viewed skeptically by anyone reading it.

in condescendingly referring to people who have criticized dahon's actions as "fan boys" you are saying that they are the ones showing bias. saying that they "need to calm down" implies that they are also being irrational.

what's irrational is not openly admitting that dahon isn't just blatantly copying brompton and attempting a niche market grab.

this is a nonsensical statement.


by claiming "distinctive differences" you are tacitly admitting that the dahon has copied the brompton; i point this out only for clarification because this is an obvious fact to anyone who sees the bike.

you describe the use of brompton's pedal as a "marketing snafu". and, you seem to suggest that because they used brompton's pedal on their brompton copy it somehow proves or confirms that dahon is a tech driven company that sucks at marketing because otherwise how could they make such a marketing blunder.

that's some interesting logic.

to suggest that dahon isn't savy about marketing or isn't "marketing driven" is an odd statement considering the size and scope of their recent global marketing campaign that communicates "emotional values". in fact, i can't think of any other bike product for which a corporate slogan so readily comes to mind - "freedom unfolds". [gag reflex triggered]

in advertising parlance, the "emotional values" technique is know as the non-cognitive appeal. cogitate on that for a moment...

that's definitely true. brompton bikes improve with every iteration. rather than attempting to achieve "total market dominance" maybe dahon (and tern) could focus on improving their products and quality control. one of the reasons josh hon left dahon was the recalcitrance on his father's part to get a grip on the quality control issues at the china factory. remember?

dahon (and tern) bikes are very shiny and sleek, but it would also be cool if all the aluminum connection points didn't get wallowed out after only a few short years of regular use. but, perhaps that's not part of the business model (planned obsolescence). after all, after 3 years surely it's time for you to buy a new dahon? (note: i'm not mentioning the recent catastrophic frame failures.)

but, the question here isn't about improvements. it's about business ethics. it's true, most people are "non-cognitive consumers", but it is also true that a growing number of people are more discerning about the things that they buy.

ethics matter.


i am a big proponent of embracing new stuff. however, there is nothing new about bigger companies attempting to crush smaller companies to insure market dominance. what dahon is doing does nothing to advance or "embrace" anything new that's of benefit to anyone in the folding bike community.

the folding bike market is definitely tiny in comparison to the bike market as a whole. nearly 100 million bikes will be made in 2014 (incidentally, 93% of them will be made in china).

for scale:

trek will make about 2.5-3 million bikes. dahon will make about 350,000. brompton will make about 30,000...


dahon is 10 x the size of brompton.

(hmm... side note: i wounder if there is any one model of dahon that outsells the brompton? probably the boardwalk.. )

i can't say for sure, but based on the size and scale of their operation, the combined staff of dahon's design, research and development, and marketing departments probably out-number brompton's total number of employees.

they couldn't come up with something new? frankly, its embarrassing.

meanwhile, in a rural prefecture of japan,

one designer with five employees comes up with this small wheeled commuter. does it incorporate existing technology and borrow and steal? yep. does it add something new that transforms the whole into something exciting and fresh? definitely. this is a textbook example of design development. what dahon is doing is, as jur said, nothing more than a customer grab.

new prototype from tyrell: loro blog

chagzuki

I don't agree with any of that, I've been arguing for several years that Brompton need direct competition to propel their product development forward, as the iterative improvements are spectacularly slow and some aspects of the bike are based on technology that is decades out of date. I don't think Brompton will be unprepared for this and I'm guessing they'll have some things in reserve to release into the market. And it's about time that the was downwards pressure on prices.
I don't think there's any moral argument to be made.
On the one hand you're saying that Dahon are aiming to steal market share that somehow belongs to another company, and on the other you're saying that they don't have quality control such that the bike will be able to compete with Brompton. This looks like reaching to me.

chagzuki

As for the credibility of a companies designs being based around originality, originality doesn't automatically result in utility. Given the history of folding bike design there's almost no room left for further experimentation and so originality is more likely going to result in disutility (Dahon Eez/Jifo or whatever it's called). As a consumer I want what I see as the best solution to the problem of folding bike design (i.e. the Brompton fold) refined as far as it can be.

chagzuki

The bike you've just posted photos of illustrates that point, the chainset is exposed and the overall folded size is the same as a bike that folds in half. New and exiting? Different but the same, different means but similar result, albeit with the addition of rear suspension which is something I'm keen on.

mconlonx

Business ethics: maximize profits for your shareholders.

Do you even recognize the irony in the pic you posted which I quoted, in relation to your rant...?

smallwheeler

no. they are not stealing market share, they are stealing the bike. they are blatantly making a copy of another company's product in order to capitalize on its success. it's not difficult to understand.

"direct competition" doesn't mean copying another company's product. that's simplistic.

if you'll recall, dahon had products that competed in the same market niche as brompton.

curve sl
presto lite

those were very good bicycles and truly dahon.

dahon jettison perfectly good and high quality bikes like the presto lite and then the curve sl in much the same way Nike discontinues a model of sport shoes.

why they didn't market those bikes more aggressively or push them forward with commitment is still a mystery to me.


anyway, where is this downward pressure on price coming from?

also, what are the aspects of the bike that are decades out of date that need to be changed?

i provided a perfect example of a bike that would compete directly with the brompton - rear swing-arm, very compact fold, and incidentally, NOT A COPY OF A BROMPTON.



so, why can't a company with the size and resources of dahon come up with something that creative? that's the real question...

smallwheeler

did you even read what i wrote? why don't you tell me about the irony.

chagzuki

My view on folding bike design in general, and particularly with Brompton, is that the stem/steerer interface hasn't been properly addressed such as to maximise stiffness. Tern said it was a priority for them but I don't think their solution was good. The problem with solving that issue in relation to a Brompton is that the amount of flex in the frame and particularly in the stem/steerer interface has a softening effect on what would otherwise be a harsh ride. So I think that the issue of flex has to be addressed in conjunction with improving suspension, probably through the option of wider tyres (305 Big Apples are really good, bouncy but nimble) though perhaps with mechanical suspension. I don't think Dahon has addressed any of these things, but nonetheless I think that competition will increase the likelihood of improvements in these areas.

The bike you posted pics of doesn't have a very compact fold since the chainring juts out. It's not a great design.

keyven

It's not that Dahon is betting everything on the Curl to keep them in business. Don't they have a number of new designs as well?

I'm not sure if Dahon and Brompton are supposed to be best buddies or what, but Brompton's high price of entry has opened a nice gap for Dahon to wiggle their way into.

What smart businessman wouldn't look at the Brompton market - with their die-hard fans - and salivate? They'd be stupid not to try, or wait for other wolves to succeed.

smallwheeler

the jifo/eez (god, these names..) is not original.

no room left for further experimentation? are you kidding me? are you on the dahon design team?

so, with that philosophy we're just down to who can produce the cheapest commodity and sell it in the largest numbers?

there is plenty of latitude for new design.

(you should consider that "further experimentation" should also include going back and examining previous designs that may have been under-utilized or never fully developed.)

tds101 

Personally I think the Brompton design is the best in class. The proprietary limited gearing, not so much. That's my ONLY complaint about a Brommie. Either way, this thread has really gone off on a tangent. I'm all ears/eyes! Lol! Just, please, keep it civil.

bhkyte

For years many people have paid over the odds for a certain design of compact folder that had poor specs for the money but good support.

Not many companies have got close to the concept of the brommie.
I personally hope that changers or there is something better for more of a reasonable spec for the money ,or simply better value.

I remember when road race levers where 350 pounds for brifters in 1990's. Progress took a while...
But a unwieldy design of downtube gear shifting became outdated and road race bikes became better as the price of this kit came down.

I have my fingers crossed....

chagzuki

There's been next to no new designs for 15/20 years as yes, the basics have been thrashed out. Innovation is taking place in the electric folding bike area as the technology is evolving there. But elsewhere development is at the stage where companies are competing to sell the highest quality folding bike for the cheapest price (as Tern and Dahon are doing, which has lead to some refinements in hinges/details), and it's to Andrew Ritchie's credit that he came up with the core folding design that companies will now compete over with regards to refinements: the profit in competing over refinements of less effective folding designs (as Dahon and Tern have been doing) has diminished and new profit opportunities have to be sought. This is fantastic as it drives quality up and prices down.

I've said already that I don't expect Dahon's bike to be as good as Brompton; I don't think Brompton will immediately be put out of business by an imitation as their business model is based on a level of customer support, availability of spare parts etc., that Dahon have never rivalled. However, it looks to me as though there are some worrying trends with that aspect of Brompton's business; for a couple of years I've had it in mind to build up a new bike and a year ago I noticed that none of the online retailers were selling Brompton frames anymore. When I quizzed them about it they said they weren't sure what was going on but that they got the impression that Brompton were shifting to a model whereby you have to have frame parts installed by a dealer. I never emailed Brompton on this, but looking at Brilliantbikes and SJS now they appear to have stopped selling both main and rear frames completely, and this is a big problem for me. I want to be able to built and maintain my bikes myself and now it appears I have a problem with spare part availability. So Brompton may be shooting themselves in the foot there.

Let's consider something else that's not really an issue for me but is for many people: choice of IGH. Brompton provide a solution that has certain merits (I lean towards it being a pretty good compromise, a better one than people often tend to assume), but for someone who wants a standard IGH they have to spend a huge sum of money getting the rear frame widened, a wheel built and the tensioner adapted. This leaves a massive market gap open for customers who want to be able to purchase a compact folder with a standard IGH. The kits for alfine/Sturmey 8 Brompton 'upgrades' cost a small fortune. Now we see that that market gap has been closed and I think that's absolutely brilliant, and about sodding time. This is something people have desired for decades, and it's an important step forward for consumers whereas an 'original fold' is almost certainly not.

chagzuki

Talking of the stem/steerer interface, looking at pics of the Clinch I think Dahon might have something new up their sleeves, and they might have nailed it.