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Framebuilding Jig wanted

Old 03-27-24, 06:22 PM
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Framebuilding Jig wanted

Hi all, new here. I want to build some frames as a hobbyist, and was hoping to come across an affordable basic jig for sale in Southern California. Maybe even someone's homemade jig which they have graduated from? I saw the one in Temecula too late, but that is pretty much what I am looking for. I could also build one, but thought Id ask here first. Thanks for any Help!

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Old 03-31-24, 04:56 PM
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Chad, your question/quest is pretty broad without some kind of guidelines that can help us reach your goal. What is your budget and how much prior experience do you have might be starter questions. It won't be very long until I've been making frames for 50 years and I can tell you there are many approaches to how to make them. While many can work fine, not all of them work well and our personalities draw us toward different approaches. How you start out can shape how you do things in the future.

The cheapest and easiest fixture is to lay out Paragon Machine Works aluminum tube blocks on a full scale drawing on some kind of flat surface. The frame is not brazed in the fixture but rather spotted together and brazed free.

I'm an American that learned in the UK (because that is where the knowledge was) and many of those builders at that time used simple methods. Ever since I got back I've refined a method that was popular over there. It is kind of like the fixture from Temecula in which an outer "picture frame" supports the pieces that represent each tube. I've refined that concept so almost everything can be set by marking on the fixture so I don't have to use protractors and rulers to set angles and lengths.

The approach I use to design a frame is to start with a person's bicycle position (their seat/handlebar/pedal relationship) and orient the tubes around that found position. It is a bit different than the racing approach where the rider is expected to fit the design. My fixture allows me to fit the frame to the rider. This can be especially useful as a person ages and his riding style changes.


These are laser cut and etched out of stainless in Ukraine.
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Old 03-31-24, 07:52 PM
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Keep your fingers on the pulse of the used for sale on line sites. Used jigs of all sorts come up routinely. The challenge will be finding one close enough to not need shipping.

I know of a flat AL plate that once was and would make again a fine starting jig's base. It's in western PA. I would have bought it yesterday (I was picking up my recent Paint by Todd completed job in eastern PA) had it been closer to where i was going. Price is right. Frame building Jig - Temecula, CA - Bike Forums Post #13. As I drove to Selinsgrove PA I thought about this jig/plate and wished i had a project for it.

Were I starting out again (but with 45+ years of very part time experience) I would still want a credible flat surface before a jig. If that came about then i would consider the Alex Meade tube blocks system for the flat surface (of which one set was offered for sale only a few months ago, these are quite reasonably shipped). Or if $ were no object, Doug's jig is really cool and can take the place of drawings and complex calculations too But that flat surface is the first big tool (as in more than two people needed to move it) to get, and becomes your standard going forward. Andy
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Old 04-01-24, 02:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart
Were I starting out again (but with 45+ years of very part time experience) I would still want a credible flat surface before a jig.
Andy's advice is great if you have room for a "flat surface" I don't. My tiny shop space has room for a frame jig, only because it's vertical and attached to a wall, so the footprint (aka the floor area it takes up) is minuscule. So for that scenario, look for a jig that can mount to a wall. Doug's Ukrainian jig can do that, I think (Doug, please correct me if that's wrong).

I've worked at shops with fantastic frame alignment systems, one of which was a 6" thick granite precision surface plate big enough for a tandem, nice, but I still believe that's mainly an advantage for a high-volume shop. A typical hobbyist makes maybe 5 frames total before selling (or mothballing) their tools, so paying kilodollars for "stuff" doesn't pencil out, even if you have unlimited space. Vee-blocks laid on a door really is good enough, if making a frame is your actual goal. See if you still want a jig after you've made five or ten frames. Then at least you'll know what kind to get.
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Old 04-01-24, 07:41 AM
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Mark is, of course, correct IMO about the need for a true machinist's flat surface. Over the years I have read of counter tops, grave stones, doors, table saw tops, milling machine beds, lasers, bright back rounds, and more used as "flat surfaces" just fine.

I do make other things besides the annual frame so the steel flat surface (2'x3' and about 300lbs) gets used as a base for stems, racks and other machining projects. I also do a few frame alignments a year. having a solid and massive set up makes me happy.

As Mark mentions, building a few frames before spending the big bucks on a real jig is also what I suggest. it was after about a dozen+ frames before I got my surface plate and another dozen + before my first real jig (HJ Universal). By then I had built on two other real jigs and had begun to formulate what I wanted in a jig. But after the Universal and another 15ish frames on it I ran across an Anvil for sale at a great price and moved the Universal on to another. Andy
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Old 04-01-24, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bulgie
Andy's advice is great if you have room for a "flat surface" I don't. My tiny shop space has room for a frame jig, only because it's vertical and attached to a wall, so the footprint (aka the floor area it takes up) is minuscule. So for that scenario, look for a jig that can mount to a wall. Doug's Ukrainian jig can do that, I think (Doug, please correct me if that's wrong).
Yes my fixture can hang on the wall when not in use. I'm not home where I can take a picture of it on the wall but I found in iPhoto a picture of a student frame and behind it one of my fixtures on the wall. That student frame was a fun one to do. She was a botanist and designed the blank lugs around the theme of a trillium flower. She was also fairly short and we used 650C wheels so she didn't have massive toe overlap. I did the spraying but she created the colors and design. In her case she wasn't wanting to become a builder so I did the brazing too.

Many classic UK builders used a simple version of my fixture instead of doing a full scale drawing. F.W. Evans in his brochures in the 1930's claimed to invent it. In fact Bulgie used to keep a website with scanned old catalogs that showed Evan's advertising brochure with a picture of his fixture on the front. Do you still make those scans available Mark? We actually had such a fixture on the wall at Ellis Briggs where I learned. The concept i use on my fixture is the same I've just added lots of bells and whistles that make me happy.

look behind the frame to see an example of one of my fixtures hanging on the wall.

One of the huge challenges of stand alone fixtures is accuracy. A lot of precision (= money) and maybe mass has to be built into the fixture so the frame is not built out of alignment. My philosophy is a bit different. I can adjust the pieces of my fixture that hold the tubes using the flat table it is sitting on as a reference. This takes away the expense and mass required if it was a stand alone version. By the way, since my fixtures are laser cut and etched in Ukraine, I'm not involved with any of the financials. They need every penny over there. Their lives are a mess and they keep saying they see drone bombs flying over their heads often. Occasionally they explode nearby (because they were shot down) and leave huge craters. Imagine what that does with their mental state of mind. I just assist with presentation and back up.
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Old 04-01-24, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
Yes my fixture can hang on the wall when not in use.
Ah right, I was hoping it could be used while hanging on the wall. I see now that it'd be too flexible to stay in one plane if it weren't laying on a flat surface. Since I don't have room for a flat surface that large, I guess it wouldn't work for me.

Luckily for me I found a standalone jig that's rigid enough to stay flat when hung on the wall. It was made by a local hobbyist who made a few frames before passing it on. I actually haven't used it to build a frame yet but I've done enough measurements that I'm semi-confident that it'll work for anything I do. He was taking machinist classes at the community college and made this jig as his project, so it's made to machinist tight tolerances. The college must have gotten a good price on 2024 T6 (high strength aluminum), because this jig uses a ton of it (OK really only 125 lb). I shudder to think what this would cost at today's prices. I modified it a bit to fit the way I like to build, which required adding some bits, and I had to buy 6061 to be able to afford it.

If this jig hadn't 'fell in my lap' , I was planning to use V-blocks set on a 1/2" thick piece of hot-rolled steel plate. It's not super flat, but I knew I could make straight frames on it with a little shimming. That's slow and a bit of a PITA if you have gotten accustomed to having nice jigs, but fine for a low-volume hobbyist. The steel plate is heavy for me to lift but do-able, and it leans against the wall when not in use, taking up practically zero floor space. A good thing about steel as your flat surface is being able to use magnets to hold your V-blocks in position.
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Old 04-01-24, 11:19 AM
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I have seen pictures of fixtures like Doug's permanently affixed to the walls of shops, maybe in the Netherlands? Seems doable. Get some real Baltic Birch plywood as a base.

My fixture can can be used to lay out a frame from the axles on up, but the simulated fork part of it isn't finished. Maybe I should do that.
Look at Bill Grove's design for an idea of what it looks like, mine ain't that pretty, or complicated. Also, I have a fixture to set the seat tube angle, which also has the distinct advantage that I can use bent seat tubes pretty easily.
https://theradavist.com/engin-cycles...frame-fixture/
The fixture seems to have mostly disappeared from the Engin site (page is still there, but you have to search for it on google), so I'm not sure you could buy one even if you had the money.

I have a precision granite plate. It's barely big enough for a single frame, so I'm not sure Doug's fixture would work that well on it. One of many things my kids will hate me for when they have to get rid of it.

My (possibly incorrect) observation is that there was a flood of fixtures on the market over the last couple of years that seems to have dried up. Seems like there is an increase in interest in framebuilding again. You love to see it, even if it causes some established framebuilders heartburn worrying about what the newbies are up to. Like Bulgie says, people build a few (or no) frames and then sell everything. Every time I go on instagram, there are new framebuilder accounts to follow. Granted, some of them I just didn't know about

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Old 04-01-24, 01:29 PM
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My fixture could be mounted on a wall with either 80/20 aluminum extrusion or plywood backing. Or for that matter a plate of aluminum or steel. The cones that hold the tubes can be adjusted to provide accurate frame alignment. The alternate V block assemblies made locally by one of my friends (with a CNC mill in his garage) are also height adjustable. While that method works well, it is not how I teach my students. I teach them to continually check alignment as the frame build progresses on a flat table.

I've checked local kitchen suppliers for granite or quartz countertops. I think they are around $35 a square foot. For that matter, I think my fixture on a maple butcher block bench top would work okay. Some flat steel plate could be put underneath in sections or the whole thing to catch flux drops or errant flame pointings. When not in use the fixture could be hung on the wall to make the bench space available for other tasks.
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Old 04-01-24, 07:38 PM
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Framebuilding Jig wanted

Hi all, thank you all so much for the thoughtful replies. I should have added more information in my original post. Almost 20 years ago I took a frame building course at a junior college in Las Vegas. We used the Paterek manual, and built True Temper lugged frames, with Henry James lugs and drops. I was not able to finish it during the semester because there were too many students, and not enough tools. I did finish it a couple years later, and its been in continuous service ever since. I am now at a point where ive become excited to pick up the torch and start making a few frames. I TIG weld for my sculpting business every day, and have a Oxy-Acetylene set up as well. Id like to build fillet brazed and lugged steel frames. Nothing crazy, and just for myself. My hope is to come across a basic and affordable jig to use while learning, and later buy something nice. I keep thinking that in Southern California there will be one that will pop up. Ill also be travelling to Chicago later this month and could feasibly pick one up if there was one along the way. Once my current commission is finished Ill have more time to practice brazing again. I need to find someone who will sell some tubing and lug seconds, or drops- Thanks for all your suggestions, I will keep my ear to the ground, and something will turn up!
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Old 04-02-24, 02:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Doug Fattic
F.W. Evans in his brochures in the 1930's claimed to invent it. In fact Bulgie used to keep a website with scanned old catalogs that showed Evan's advertising brochure with a picture of his fixture on the front.
Yes, he does. I hadn't stumbled on it before, but Knowing what I was looking for, I found it just now:

https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/FWEvans-late30s/
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Old 04-02-24, 09:39 AM
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Chad, here is a fixture previously owned by Michigan builder Randy Smolensky. One of my framebuilding students bought it from his widow. It was included in a group of tools/equipment. The picture includes pieces to turn it into a tandem fixture. Some of its pieces are not in the picture. This fixture was made by Andrew Hague in the UK. He used to provide bits and bobs for the framebuilding community. My student might be willing to let it go. I can ask. I'm sure it was't expensive. I have one too that I have never used that I got with a collection of stuff. Mine has round tube holders. I have it stored somewhere behind my sandblaster. We are about 90 miles east of Chicago just over the state line above South Bend, Indiana.


an Andrew Hague fixture used by Randy Somlenski
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Old 04-02-24, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by smontanaro
Yes, he does. I hadn't stumbled on it before, but Knowing what I was looking for, I found it just now:

https://bulgier.net/pics/bike/Catalogs/FWEvans-late30s/
Here it is assembled into a big PDF file.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
evans.pdf (4.04 MB, 9 views)
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Old 04-02-24, 11:52 AM
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Hi Doug,

That would be great, and probably more than adequate for what I am looking for. I would certainly be interested in finding out what your student would be asking if it were for sale (or yours for that matter ). Your location isn't too far from where we will be in Batavia, Illinois. I believe we will be in Chicago one night, and could easly pop over to your shop. Thanks!
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Old 04-10-24, 01:20 PM
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I'm really curious about building a cheap one from wood maybe
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Old 04-12-24, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by mauin1x
I'm really curious about building a cheap one from wood maybe
Wood has been used before. The two examples are both aimed at new to building people on a budget. The Jiggernaut as found here Results for "bicycle frame jig" in all - Instructables is the more recent one. The other was from The Proteus manual and IIRC for the fork. Way back when I heard of stories of the Proteus version being easily charred by the torch.

Wood is fairly cheap and easy to shape with low cost tools but it is hard to keep to tight tolerances without fancy tooling. It is not super stiff and is affected by the temp and the humidity. I use wood for bench vise tube blocks and other work holding bits. I certainly wouldn't trust a wood jig to be well aligned, let alone any frame made on one. One more reason to have some sort of flat surface that will handle the alignment aspects. Andy
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Old 04-12-24, 05:24 PM
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mdf is pretty flat, usually. But if I didn't have a fixture, I would go for an extrusion version. At least when you give up, there is a ready market for it.
But extrusion might not be as flat as mdf
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Old 04-12-24, 07:28 PM
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I knew people who struggled with that Andrew Hague jig. They said the design suffered from the fatal flaw that if you needed to change ANY one thing, that it threw EVERYTHING else off.
The more recent Bringheli jig was another marginal and troublesome design.

The one in the picture looks slightly modified from the Hague ones I am familiar with. Could this be a beefed-up copy that Randy Smolenski made ?

Disclaimer - Around 40 years ago I built a jig that was partly inspired by the Hague one. Looking back I spent (wasted would be a more accurate term) an enormous amount of time and energy on that POS.
Almost every single framebuilder I've ever talked to laughs or cries when they talked about their early attempts at jigs and tools. Seems easy. It really isn't.

Save your $ and get the Doug Fattic one, or something more decent, more modern and user-friendly. Use it and then pass it on to someone else and re-coup your investment as best as possible makes a lot more sense than getting something
marginal that you feel bad about selling to some hopeful new hobbiest.

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Old 04-13-24, 12:02 PM
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The thing that was wrong with just about every fixture made in the '70s and early '80s was that we all assumed that tubes would always be the same diameter. The Bringheli fixtures don't have that problem, but there are lots of mods out there for them.

I'm not sure when it became common knowledge among framebuilders that you should tack in a fixture and fully join the frame outside of it. I certainly didn't know that in the '70s. I did know something was wrong with the way I was building and experimented. If I had known that I should only use the fixture to tack the frame together, that probably would have solved most of the problems I had.
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Old 04-13-24, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mauin1x
I'm really curious about building a cheap one from wood maybe
It is possible to make a frame making fixture out of wood but it gets complicated real fast. Since I and a number of engineers have spent countless hours designing the fixture I have made in Ukraine, those experiences have given me a solid foundation to use as a basis to make something ourt of wood. In fact i've made prototypes of the V block assembly and pieces that represent each tube out of hard maple. However I have a vertical mill and lathe so I could use the same methods except replace metal with wood. I assume most people that want to make a simple fixture out of wood only have simple hand tools. And that would present real challenges. However if one had a good wood shop then game on.

I can't imagine not having some kind of flat surface as a reference for alignment. Andy and I sing the same tune about this. It is possible to use good plywood or MDF board for this. What would be possible is using half of the wood blacks we all have to make to hold our frames in a bench vise. These half pieces could be laid out on a full scale drawing just like Paragon tubing blocks made out of aluminum are often used for this job. Since all you are doing is tacking the frame tubes together in the fixture, sheet steel could be put under the joints to prevent the plywood from catching on fire. Of course there are many improvements that could be added to this basic configuration.

In fact the drawing could be done directly onto the MDF and the wood blocks attached with glue or screws to the board
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Old 04-23-24, 03:55 PM
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I like Doug's fixture since I learned on that fixture. I built my second frame on an MDF fixture and it wasn't too bad. Only issue is it's a magnet for moisture. Though it got the job done. The guy who got the Temecula jig as mention before was also a student of Doug's...who was in my class and I found that jig for him. That guy also was a student of Doug if that says anything. Cobra Frameworks who makes an amazing frame jig and other frame tooling...former Fattic alumni. lol. See a trend forming? Haha!
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