rekmeyata

I doubt in 1916 they had hi tensile steel, could I be wrong? I don't know, but I've never heard of that term being used for that era of bikes, and I can't seem to find out on the internet when high tensile steel was first used, but I can find that they refer to the steel tubing used on bikes in the early 1900's as gas pipe or also known as cast iron which was what gas pipes were made of back then.

Homebrew01

Did they ass-plode like carbon does ?

bulldog1935

It was quite easy to get high tensile strength steel in 1916 - carbon is what you oxidize from bloom iron to make steel, it also makes steel strong - ductility and toughness is the goal in purifying and alloying steel.

Burning the carbon and other impurities down to make the steel as ductile as possible and prevent brittle fracture in industrial applications was generally the goal of steelmaking. You make pipe and tubing to contain pressure. You buy it off the shelf and use it.
Low carbon steel had all the strength they needed. (But they used medium and high carbon steels as well in high strength applications - structural flanges, nuts and bolts, bearings) - when you're containing pressure, ductility is more important than strength.
They certainly had seam-welded pipe in 1916 - that was all they had, they didn't pierce billets to make seamless pipe, and it would have been gas pipe and that's also what they made all bikes from. Bessemer-process steel was industrialized in 1856 and continually improved since.

You find old bikes, especially prewar bikes, it's easy to feel the seams in the tubing, and that's why they call them gas pipes. You may find seamed tubing used in a Flying Pigeon or early postwar Japanese bike.

TI built their company around piercing billets to make seamless tubing. High strength alloy steel tubes are generally for lightweight structural applications and back then for airplane frames. Since these also made better bikes, it was a natural growth for TI to move into making specialty tubes for bicycles and eventually the whole bicycles. (The history is essentially the same is for Reynolds, Columbus, Vitus, Tange, True Temper).

But certainly most of the bikes being discussed here are newer than that date, and generally are bike boom bikes or even newer than bike boom, and they're all seamless tubing. Price a Mead, Dayton or Flying Merkel - they're not what's usually being discussed here.

drlogik 

A steel bike will last decades if taken care of. My 1987-ish all Campy Pinarello Montello is showing no signs of slowing down or nearing the retirement age. I still ride it every week.



Just to clear up some things regarding steel. "High tensile" steel is a classification of steel that is made with multiple alloys so that it can be heat treated for various desired qualities. Those high tensile steels all contain molybdenum and chromium (i.e. chromoly). What separates one high tensile steel from another more than anything else is quality of manufacture.

Not all are the same in that respect and actually quality can very greatly. A cheap high tensile chromium molybdenum alloy steel is cheap and it may not perform well in any application. A high quality steel of the same type is what Columbus, Reynolds, Tange and the like use in their production. Their frames are expensive not because of just the name but because their raw material (steel) is the highest quality they can obtain.

One steel that I wish somebody would turn in to bike frame is Cor-Ten steel. US Steel first came out with that well over 40 years ago. Other companies now make that type of steel and you see it in bridges, guard rails on highways, etc. Have you ever seen a newer steel bridge that is rusted to a deep brown color and never painted? That's probably Cor-ten. It rusts up to a point and after that it rusts no more and is basically impervious to weather. If they found a way to make that suitable for bike frames it would make one cool looking bike in my opinion....a "rust" bike. I know I have a really badass steam-punk inspired fixed gear bike in mind.....think Mad Max with an Aeon Flux twist....


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bulldog1935

Sorry, doc, high-ten is medium carbon, manganese steel - TI 20-30 used in Raleigh Grand Prix (among the better).

Even Reynolds 531 is carbon manganese alloy steel.
Manganese is a steel hardening (strengthening by heat treatment) alloy element, comparable in its hardening effect to molybdenum.
Chromium is a stronger hardening element (41xx series)

A good steel bike protected from the weather can be safely ridden indefinitely.

1989Pre 

Keep the bike indoors in a heated space in the evening. Make sure all the components are greased and oiled properly. Try not to scratch it and expose the metal. Throw a cover over it if you have to leave it in the rain. It will last forever.

bulldog1935

I recently built up this butted Reynolds 531 1974 Raleigh International frame. When my LBS was aligning the frame for me, they also used Weigle framsaver (sealant and corrosion inhibitor) inside the frame. There was no rust anywhere, it didn't need it, but it's cheap insurance from the weather. The bike originally belonged to a college professor, and the guy who bought it and parted it out ten years ago never used the frame because it was too big for him - just right for me.

drlogik 

Bulldog,

Hmm, gonna look in to that. You may be right. The next thing you'll tell me is that you're an expert on bamboo rods and fly tying! ROFLMAO....

Inside joke folks....

BTW, that's a might perty International you got there. Did you see that Raleigh Supercourse for sale on that "site that shall not be mentioned" that has a Huret Jubilee rear derailleur? Wow, that's a blast from the past and was original for one year only as I recall from my Al's Bike Shop days in the 1970's. That Jubilee derailleur sure would look good on that International....


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Wildwood 

I ride a 1999 Pinarello, lugged, hi-ten Oria tubing. Frame+fork = 8.0 lbs.
With Spinergy Xaero wheels it feels much different than my higher end Columbus SLX and Reynolds 531 framed bikes. Aside from the 5lb difference, it has the very damped road feel that many CF bikes tout as a superior ride characteristic. Being an entry level racer in Italy, it tracks well and corners like on rails, not snappy when accelerating. I don't name bikes, but this is: MyPigwithLipstick. NOS from Italy, i built w/ Campy Centaur/Veloce.

bulldog1935

doc, I'm a metallurgist and licensed professional engineer. I earn my living in life prediction on power, process plants and land-based gas turbines (lotsa steel and some nickel-based superalloys).

My blue Grand Prix got destroyed at the beginning of October - I was broken, too. The bike has been wearing a silk purse for years, and I had often considered upgrading the frame - so this sealed it and I hunted down the International frame - I just moved everything over - had to buy 3 parts.

But sitting here at my house is a '79 Super Course that hasn't been ridden or maintained in 30 years.
Belongs to a friend who asked to store it here when he moved (to the west side and thought it would be safer here).
After a few months he asked if I wanted to buy it, and the discussion ended at fair value.
Then after me and the GP got hurt, I did want to buy it and called him.
Suddenly it was his child.
SoK, I found the International....

rekmeyata

Hmmm, did I say anywhere in my post you're alluding to that they exploded like Carbon? Of course not so why act like a dumb arse? Oh that's right, that's the kind of people that are attracted to this forum, those that always have to have some sort of dumb arse response.

FBinNY 

Is it my imagination? Or is it true that the most abrasive people who chronically complain about unfriendly forums, are the same ones that make it so?

No need to answer, it's been a long day, and I'm probably seeing things that aren't there.

Homebrew01

Sorry .... Just trying to be a bit funny about gas-pipe......and carbon .... nevermind

bulldog1935

everybody is weathered in this weekend

rekmeyata

Odd thing is, I've been on many forums for quite a few years from cycling to other types of interests, and this particular forum is the worse for abrasive unfriendly people, and it's been like that here for a long time just the names have changed over the years. Not sure why only this forum is so bad, but you obviously having a doctorate in psychology can perhaps analyze me some more and tell me why I'm this way only here. Or do you just play a psychologist on TV?

bulldog1935

maybe because people come back 24 hours later to pick a fight that never really existed?

Steel, this is a thread about steel and life expectancy.

On those other forums, the moderators would probably moderate and keep the thread on topic.
I've been a moderator and/or administrator on two antique fly tackle boards.

If it makes you feel any better, I have 24 names on my ignore list here - more than on any other internet forum that I've ever joined.
The good thing about that is that I don't get a notice when one of those 24 quotes my post.
I will occasionally open up those blind posts to decide whether I want want to give someone another chance, or confirm that I made the right choice to begin with.
None of the people in this off topic discussion have made my ignore list, so all you guys are pretty good in my book.

FBinNY 

Methinks, thou doth protest too much.

It was just a general observation not aimed a anyone in particular. In a sense it was an "if the shoe fits" kind of thing.

My personal experience here on BF is that you get sort of an echo of the attitude you project. Yes, there are cranky abrasive people, and I even avoid certain sub-forums because they seem to attract a larger share, but overall, I don't find BF to be especially unfriendly.

But, then again, I'm from NY and maybe I'm too used to it to recognize it.

rekmeyata

From NY? yeah, that explains it. I've been to NY city several times and other large cities up that way and yeah they are rude...but if everyone is like that in a chosen area then like you said you get use to it. It's like my grandson and I were joking around about being born with legs coming out of our heads how would we walk, and I said on our legs of course upside down, but then I added, if all humans were born like that you and I would be sitting around joking today about how funny we would all look if we had legs coming out of our butts! So it is a perspective thing from where a person comes from that's for sure.

rekmeyata

That's what I need to do on this forum is utilize the ignore button. But your experience is the same as mine, a lot more people that you're ignoring on this forum vs any other; on other forums, including cycling ones, there really isn't anyone I can think of that I could use the ignore feature, but this one...yeah there's quite a few sorry to say.

jgwilliams

My two bikes date from 1976 and 1993, both built by Witcomb in Debtford, London, UK. I had the older one altered somewhere around 99 to shorten the forks and a few other alterations so I could put modern parts on. I was a little sad about that but I wanted a bike I could use, not a museum piece and it was getting increasingly hard to source parts that would fit it. They now both have Campag 9-speed group sets on and are both ridden regularly. The older one is Reynolds 531 tubing and the newer is 653. The newer is my goto bike in fine weather, the other one is for wet weather, carrying my son in a Co-Pilot seat, pulling a kiddy trailer and anything else of that ilk. They're both looking a bit shabby now and I'm hoping that proceeds from the sale of another bike will earn me enough to get them both re-enamelled. I would think the older one has 'gone round the clock' in terms of mileage. It's only in recent years that I've started recording my mileage but I know the newer one has done at least 20,000 miles, probably a lot more. Oh, and they've both been involved in accidents: I had to have the older one re-tracked after it's first smash but the steel goes. The 653 model has just brushed off the accidents I've had, as have the Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels which seems to be incredibly strong.

John

shelbyfv

Always a reliable indication of quality, just ask BD.

Stucky

Hi-tensile will last longer than you want it to! You'll be wishing that it'd wear out so you could get a better one.....but it just won't deteriorate!

When I was a kid, a friend of mine intentionally tried to destroy his high-tensile bike, so that his parents would buy him a new one. Couldn't do it! (And he was pretty adept at destroying things, without even trying!). I had to talk him out of the idea of rolling it out in front of a truck.....

12boy

My Brompton is HiTen and it is solid. I would be very curious to know how much less the main frame, forks and rear triangle would weigh if they were double butted and higher end Reynolds or Columbus tubing. The Brompton Builder is pretty good about letting you know the weight of each option, i.e. gears, bars, etc but I've never seen the weights for the frame bits. I am probably wrong on this but I understand HiTen is as strong and durable as Cro-Mo if engineered to be and if you can live with the extra weight.

Fastfingaz

Anybody ever hear the phrase,,, it'll hurt till the pain goes away,,,,, well that's the answer to this question,,,, it'll last till it breaks,,,,,,

Wileyone 

Better question is how many carbon fiber bikes will still be rideable after 20 Years let alone 50 Years?