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Dealer ordered wrong sized frame

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Dealer ordered wrong sized frame

Old 01-11-19, 07:51 PM
  #26  
HerrKaLeun
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That manufacturer should just switch to direct-sell. Distributing through LBS apparently doesn't add value for customer.

OP likely would have read the instructions better had he not relied on LBS.

Custom-ordering a very expensive bike should yield a very well fitting bike tailored to OP specific needs. The way it turned out a BSO would have been a better fit, at least a test ride in store would have been possible.

But support your LBS, no matter what.
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Old 01-11-19, 08:47 PM
  #27  
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Sorry dude but you own that bike. You've been riding it for 3 months.??.... You own it. I would have resolved that issue in 5 business days. And for that much money I would read every spec, every word, every review and everything before I purchased/ordered the bike. Everything would have to be perfect in my little mind before I went through what you're going through.

You own it.And beyond that, that dealer would be history. Gone. I would never open that door again. They should have advised you better. And, they should have realized that even replacing parts for a good fit was not possible. You both screwed up....
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Old 01-12-19, 12:28 AM
  #28  
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People go to the local bike shops for guidance. They should have steered you right. If not, that means they don't know WTH they are doing! And why do we pay high prices at the local bike shops? For their great service! Yeah Right!

I'd take them to the BBB for selling you the wrong size. It's their job as a business and not yours as a consumer. What kind of business are they running there if they don't know their own products?
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Old 01-12-19, 01:07 AM
  #29  
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Unusually long top tube and wheelbase for the frame size on those bikes.
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Old 01-12-19, 08:35 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by tclune View Post
I get some real cognitive dissonance from some members of this site. The constant braying is that we must support our LBS or we will be left without local experts to shield us from the ravages of our own limited understanding. But every time the LBS fails to deliver on its implied commercial value, the immediate response is that it is your own fault for being ignorant, not the fault of those who were selling you faulty expertise.
My exact thoughts before I was halfway through the OP.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:00 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne View Post
Has anyone else been though this ... and how was it resolved?
Yes. about ten years ago now I bought a bike that I realized was somewhat too large. Shop wouldn't take it back even though I called and asked the very next day. I was able to make the fit work, but was also happy when the frame became damaged and I had an excuse to toss it.

I don't know what advice to give you in your current situation. Are you able to test ride the same bike in the 47 mm size? Are you certain of the 47 mm size fitting you better?

Last edited by JonathanGennick; 01-12-19 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:25 PM
  #32  
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For 7000+ Euros I would think someone at some level would step up and address your concerns and try and make sure all parties are satisfied with the outcome.

I do know that if I was going to drop USD8000.00+ on a bike, I would be damn sure I went over every detail 5x before signing the work order. I would want to see a worksheet specifically stating what I'm getting.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:38 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by tclune View Post
I get some real cognitive dissonance from some members of this site. The constant braying is that we must support our LBS or we will be left without local experts to shield us from the ravages of our own limited understanding. But every time the LBS fails to deliver on its implied commercial value, the immediate response is that it is your own fault for being ignorant, not the fault of those who were selling you faulty expertise.
Of course it is always the fault of the shop and never a customer. I have had many customers who choose to buy the wrong size frame despite my advice or buy the wrong lock and their bike got stolen or have had people buy bikes they aren't going to work for them even though I told them they should have gotten something different. I have also seen plenty of times when a customer refuses to repair their bike and it falls apart and we get the blame for their chintzy bike maintenance habits. Not everyone listens to their local shop but when they make a bad decision it is suddenly our fault. People love to lie about a business because why not it is a faceless corporation not a bunch of human beings. Yes sometimes people do screw up and make mistakes we all can do that nobody is perfect but always immediately saying it must have been the shops fault in every situation is wrong.

I have gone through those bike size guesstimates and they have been wrong before. Saying someone should go for that because the company must know what they are doing is not always the case. This is why one should always test bikes before they buy them so they can get a feel for different sizes.

I am not sure who is at fault here but certainly the shop does not need to take back a used bike but the shop could certainly help get it better fitted for the customer either through them or maybe by recommending a local fitter. In this case though I would have done more research into the fit and geometry of the bike before dropping that money.
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Old 01-12-19, 01:21 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
I have gone through those bike size guesstimates and they have been wrong before. Saying someone should go for that because the company must know what they are doing is not always the case. This is why one should always test bikes before they buy them so they can get a feel for different sizes.
Then why bother with "authorized retailers"? If the item in question is a limited production model from a small, high end brand, which is only available to order and to which no stock is available beforehand to test ride, isn't it on the dealer to understand the sizing and to sell the proper size? At the very minimum, shouldn't they know that the sizing for that model is not comparable to a regular road bike, and care must be taken when selecting one?
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Old 01-12-19, 02:18 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
isn't it on the dealer to understand the sizing and to sell the proper size? At the very minimum, shouldn't they know that the sizing for that model is not comparable to a regular road bike, and care must be taken when selecting one?
It should be on the manufacturer to link to the proper sizing chart, rather than linking to the road chart for a bike with MTB dimensions.

I'm surprised that the LBS apparently took a bunch of measurements of the OP, and still got the size wrong.

In the end, there is no easy blame here.
  • OP, not double checking measurements. Comparing measurements to old bike?
    Taking delivery of the "wrong" bicycle.
    Allowing several months to pass with issues unresolved.
  • Manufacturer, linking to wrong sizing charts on main pages of web page. Not making sizing clear.
  • LBS, ordering wrong bike, not double checking everything.
    Did they take the "trade-in?" Measure the old bike and discuss it with the OP?

Between manufacturer and dealer, a 7000 bicycle likely has a 3500 markup on it. Perhaps more.

A new frame, manufacture cost is likely around 1000, give or take a bit.

The manufacture/dealer would likely be better off to swap frames, and build up the old frame and sell for say 5000 as returned merchandise in new condition with warranty, and everyone would still turn a profit, and a new buyer would be very happy.
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Old 01-12-19, 09:08 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk View Post
Then why bother with "authorized retailers"? If the item in question is a limited production model from a small, high end brand, which is only available to order and to which no stock is available beforehand to test ride, isn't it on the dealer to understand the sizing and to sell the proper size? At the very minimum, shouldn't they know that the sizing for that model is not comparable to a regular road bike, and care must be taken when selecting one?
So it is wholly possible that they did order the right size. We don't really know because we haven't heard but one side of the story. We do know the bike was enough the right size to be ridden a bunch and kept around for a while. We also know the sizing is odd like a lot of european sizing which doesn't quite correlate in terms of road bike sizing or hybrid/mtb sizing as we know it here in the U.S. I have high doubts that the bike was just randomly ordered because there is quite a process for Van Nic. (I was just looking at it earlier in the week by happenstance). It is possible that the shop actually ordered the wrong size but it could be that the OP didn't like the size he ordered and why not blame the evil bike shop that is only in it for your money and also to steal your soul and eat your babies!

I also know that in some cases for high dollar bikes like that you have to custom order they tend to sell dealers demo bikes so people can do some test riding. We do it for Riese and Muller and I have seen it for Seven, Moots and Santa Cruz at other shops. Maybe Van Nic. doesn't do it but it is possible.


As far as the cost of these bikes, margins are NOT high on bikes and those people that think the bikes cost $100 and we are making thousands per bike is just ridiculous, there is a little to be made but truly a little. However it is tough to be a bike shop and not sell bikes unless you are just service orientated or are a custom studio in which case you are working with fewer clients and still selling bikes.
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Old 01-12-19, 09:53 PM
  #37  
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Actually, if you look at the geometry, VN isn’t really significantly different than most other flat bar bikes. I mean, if you’re coming from a drop bar bike you have to understand that top tube lengths are gonna be longer for same size bikes. That’s not a novelty, it’s just basic bike geo.

Check out the Kona Dr Dew. It’s damned near identical, save a few mm here or there. Nobody’s claiming Kona’s bike geo is odd or unusual. The only thing that’s remotely different is that both VN and Kona use older, more traditional nomenclature by stating sizes based on seat tube lengths. Nobody really does that anymore, but that doesn’t make VN or Kona wrong about it.

Vegan makes a point in that it’s easy to blame the shop and we’re only getting half of the story, but unless OP demanded the wrong size against the shops advice (and that’s a possibility here) then this one is on the shop. Flat bar geometry isn’t a novelty and it damned sure isn’t rocket surgery.


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Old 01-13-19, 07:49 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Ahhh, it took a while, but I've found the two pages.

The discrepancy is that on the "Spec" page, links to frame sizes take one to a general Drop Bar Road Bike sizing page.

On the configurator page, it takes one to a model specific (MTB/Hybrid) sizing page.

If the OP clicked on neither link, then perhaps that is a fault of the OP.

.
While the sizing calculator on the spec page may not be correct, I'm still leery of the configurator "advice" being correct. It just seems really odd that this bike model comes in only 3 sizes, and the largest model size the 57cm, is not specced or 'advised' unless you happen to be of the .5% of the population with a 100cm/39" or greater inseam? And if this size's advice is wrong, then the other 2 may be as well? Something ain't right.
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Old 01-13-19, 10:27 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
While the sizing calculator on the spec page may not be correct, I'm still leery of the configurator "advice" being correct. It just seems really odd that this bike model comes in only 3 sizes, and the largest model size the 57cm, is not specced or 'advised' unless you happen to be of the .5% of the population with a 100cm/39" or greater inseam? And if this size's advice is wrong, then the other 2 may be as well? Something ain't right.
I entered my info into the calculator (35" cycling inseam) and it recommended the 57cm. So, at least in my case it worked fine. Looking at the geo, the 57 would be perfect for me and is only very slightly different than my current flat bar bike. It is odd that there are only three sizes, especially when you consider the price point.

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Old 01-13-19, 11:31 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Kedosto View Post
I entered my info into the calculator (35" cycling inseam) and it recommended the 57cm. So, at least in my case it worked fine. Looking at the geo, the 57 would be perfect for me and is only very slightly different than my current flat bar bike. It is odd that there are only three sizes, especially when you consider the price point.

-Kedosto
Were you in the calculator that's linked below the geometry table, or in the Customize tool where first step is picking a frame size, and the "Advice" picks you a frame size solely on inseam (height, arm length, frame length).?

ie. screenshot below where I arbitrarily put inseam at 92cm (36") and it still has the 52cm selected... not changing its "advice" til you drag the inseam slider all the way to the top to 100cm

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Old 01-13-19, 11:36 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
So it is wholly possible that they did order the right size. We don't really know because we haven't heard but one side of the story. We do know the bike was enough the right size to be ridden a bunch and kept around for a while. We also know the sizing is odd like a lot of european sizing which doesn't quite correlate in terms of road bike sizing or hybrid/mtb sizing as we know it here in the U.S. I have high doubts that the bike was just randomly ordered because there is quite a process for Van Nic. (I was just looking at it earlier in the week by happenstance). It is possible that the shop actually ordered the wrong size but it could be that the OP didn't like the size he ordered and why not blame the evil bike shop that is only in it for your money and also to steal your soul and eat your babies!

I also know that in some cases for high dollar bikes like that you have to custom order they tend to sell dealers demo bikes so people can do some test riding. We do it for Riese and Muller and I have seen it for Seven, Moots and Santa Cruz at other shops. Maybe Van Nic. doesn't do it but it is possible.


As far as the cost of these bikes, margins are NOT high on bikes and those people that think the bikes cost $100 and we are making thousands per bike is just ridiculous, there is a little to be made but truly a little. However it is tough to be a bike shop and not sell bikes unless you are just service orientated or are a custom studio in which case you are working with fewer clients and still selling bikes.
You are correct. It is entirely possible that the shop did everything correctly. The customer got a bike that fits correctly or that he demanded against the shop's advice and he is unhappy. So unhappy that he takes to the keyboard to make up a story and ask for advice without ever mentioning the shop's name. I can see how the OP would benefit from that.
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Old 01-13-19, 11:47 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
While the sizing calculator on the spec page may not be correct, I'm still leery of the configurator "advice" being correct. It just seems really odd that this bike model comes in only 3 sizes, and the largest model size the 57cm, is not specced or 'advised' unless you happen to be of the .5% of the population with a 100cm/39" or greater inseam? And if this size's advice is wrong, then the other 2 may be as well? Something ain't right.
Interesting concept.

The website links to two different frame sizing wizards.

One appears to be more of road bike sizing recommendations.
One appears to be more of MTB sizing recommendations, I think.

The Deveron is listed as a flat bar "Touring Bike", and falls in neither category. Certainly a much longer frame than the average road bike.

I did find it odd that someone who is 5'9" is listed as riding the smallest bike available.

What do the riders who are 5'0" ride?

I find that sloping seat tubes make measurements complex. The OP apparently is able to stand over the frame. 52cm?

With the major issue being reach for bars which is being "adjusted".

With the main difference between the frames being a 2cm Effective Top Tube difference. Something that the shorter stem or swept back bars should compensate for.

Moving stem spacers around is quite normal for tuning a bike fit. Once one is happy, then the steer tube may be cut. Perhaps leave 1cm or so sticking up for future adjustment.
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Old 01-13-19, 01:39 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Were you in the calculator that's linked below the geometry table, or in the Customize tool where first step is picking a frame size, and the "Advice" picks you a frame size solely on inseam (height, arm length, frame length).?
ie. screenshot below where I arbitrarily put inseam at 92cm (36") and it still has the 52cm selected... not changing its "advice" til you drag the inseam slider all the way to the top to 100cm
Ahh. I get what you're saying. I used the one at the first step. Providing a dysfunctional calculator certainly opens the door to VN bearing at least a portion of the responsibility here. But still, the bike shop... c'mon. If you're buying a suit and they punch in your measurement info into some calculator and it suggests you take a jacket two sizes too big, doesn't anyone's common sense alarm go off? I mean, it's their job, right? And when you come back to pick up the suit and you're swimming in an over sized jacket, do you just accept it and wear it while posting on a forum? I dunno... something ain't right here.


-Kedosto
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Old 01-13-19, 04:10 PM
  #44  
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I made a comparative chart between the Van Nicholas Deveron and two of the Amazon models (ignoring the Mixte), with the sizes 520 for the Deveron and 540 for the Amazons marked.

Noting, of course, models listed on the website may not reflect trade-in models that are a couple of years old.



It is interesting looking at the differences in the models. I was surprised to see the Derailleur and Rohloff Amazon bikes show so many size differences (with the derailleur bike approaching typical road bike geometry).

If I was simply snagging the bikes and ordering, I would have probably also chosen the 52 to replace the 54.

However, looking at a few critical measurements, Stack, Reach, and Effective Top Tube, the 47 is much more similar to the OP's old 54 than the 52.

Interesting, the HeadTube lengths are most similar between the 54 & 52. Apparently the difference in the stack comes from the fork.

What a frustrating website to use. Things like tire/wheel size are buried in the configurator that doesn't like my computer.

I have to say, in this case, everyone dropped the ball.

Buying a 7000+ custom order bike, as a "trade-in", even ignoring the online configuration tools, one should have dug out the geometry chart, and did a side-by-side comparison between the OP's old bike and the new bikes. Probably actually measuring the old bike. That way one can keep surprises to a minimum.

The OP should have done that himself, and the shop should have insisted on the step.

Size differences would have immediately popped up.

I'm convinced the OP could ride either bike, but it would been good to catch the differences early and discuss the possible differences between the bikes.

It is possible the shoulder and arm issues are completely unrelated to the bike size. Some other injury or stress? Mattress? Getting OLD?
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Old 01-15-19, 06:01 AM
  #45  
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A follow up - I just got back from the dealer and they've ordered another handlebar for me to try. I was reassured that if this did not do the trick they would order a smaller frame for me. I was also told that they had been in contact with Van Nicholas about this as well. I personally don't think the ordered handlebar will make much of a difference but I'm willing to try just the same.

So, my initial thoughts about expecting problems are gone.
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Old 01-15-19, 08:40 AM
  #46  
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That's encouraging to hear David. With only 3 frame sizes, it's a given that riders will have to do a little experimenting with stems, bars and seatposts to try to get the right fit. But in your case it seems obvious to me that they started with the wrong frame size.
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Old 01-22-19, 06:15 AM
  #47  
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Another follow-up ... the dealer installed yet another handlebar for me try. This one was more swept back. I didn't like the way I was forced to place my elbows closer to my body and if I would have liked this posture, the distance was still too far; I would prefer the steering bar closer to me. The frame is too big for me.

So, the dealer agreed that the smaller size would be better and will contact Van Nicholas.

Last edited by Dave Horne; 01-22-19 at 06:36 AM.
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Old 01-22-19, 06:40 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne View Post
Another follow-up ... the dealer installed yet another handlebar for me try. This one was more swept back. I didn't like the way I was forced to place my elbows closer to my body and if I would have liked this posture, the distance was still too far; I would prefer the steering bar closer to me. The frame is too big for me.

So, the dealer agreed that the smaller size would be better and will contact Van Nicholas.
Thanks for the update! Glad the dealer is working with Van Nicholas. Hope the frame swap goes well, and that the newer and smaller frame fits well.
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Old 01-22-19, 07:03 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne View Post
Another follow-up ... the dealer installed yet another handlebar for me try. This one was more swept back. I didn't like the way I was forced to place my elbows closer to my body and if I would have liked this posture, the distance was still too far; I would prefer the steering bar closer to me. The frame is too big for me.

So, the dealer agreed that the smaller size would be better and will contact Van Nicholas.
Glad to hear they are working with you!
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Old 01-22-19, 09:41 AM
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Sy Reene
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Originally Posted by Dave Horne View Post
A follow up - I just got back from the dealer and they've ordered another handlebar for me to try. I was reassured that if this did not do the trick they would order a smaller frame for me. I was also told that they had been in contact with Van Nicholas about this as well. I personally don't think the ordered handlebar will make much of a difference but I'm willing to try just the same.

So, my initial thoughts about expecting problems are gone.
Hopefully Van Nicholas is fixing their website and putting up a frame size calculator that makes sense.
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