Why do some people refer to some bicycles as BSO?
02-12-19, 10:11 AM
#251
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Can anyone discuss and give examples of decent new assembled bikes that can be bought for less than $200? "Decent" is defined as reliable enough for regular short commute usage for at least three years without major components upgrade (tires, pedals and saddles don't count as "major"). I know that's arbitrary, but I also think it's not an unreasonable definition.
I'd really like to hear from people who think they've bought such bikes in the U.S. in the last few years, and would hope that other posters will refrain from trying to convince them that they're somehow wrong to like their bike..The value in a forum like this is to learn from other people's different experiences, not to convince other people that yours is the only way of looking at things.
I'd really like to hear from people who think they've bought such bikes in the U.S. in the last few years, and would hope that other posters will refrain from trying to convince them that they're somehow wrong to like their bike..The value in a forum like this is to learn from other people's different experiences, not to convince other people that yours is the only way of looking at things.
I would say that for a full retail multi-geared bike...not one you can get on sale...$270 is about the bottom of a decent, reliable bike. The Fuji Cambridge is a pretty good example. They are still going to have some warts but the warts are treatable.
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Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-12-19, 10:30 AM
#252
Banned
Why don't you read what I've written. Yes, you bought your Cube from a bike shop. Someone assembled it and prepared it and checked it. The €700 you paid for it barely covered the cost of all that preparatory work. I really doubt that the shop "hardly did any service" because no shop in any country can exist on bike sales alone. And not every person in any given country is a master mechanic with a complete bike shop in the basement, just as not everyone in the US is an inept idiot when it comes to bicycles. People are people and some have skills while others hire the ones with skills to do work for them.
As to the "single bay", how big was the shop? Did it only have a few bikes or was it a large showroom. Common practice in bike shops is to have a single bay (or a couple of bays) on the showroom to do minor adjustments and have other mechanics bays out of sight. Showroom space is often more important to "show" customers than mechanical space.
As to the "single bay", how big was the shop? Did it only have a few bikes or was it a large showroom. Common practice in bike shops is to have a single bay (or a couple of bays) on the showroom to do minor adjustments and have other mechanics bays out of sight. Showroom space is often more important to "show" customers than mechanical space.
I will be sure to consult you rather than my German, Swedish and Danish friends (that one works with the national cycling team and well as owning a shop in CPH) about bicycle shop economics
02-12-19, 01:20 PM
#253
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No. Bike shops don't sell cheap bikes in Germany. Supermarkets, do. You're showing your ineptitude. Where I bought my CUBE MTB in Frankfurt, the cheapest bike for sale was around €700. No used bikes were available. A few number of accessories were available. They hardly did any service (one clamp bay), never really needed to as most Germans did it at home in the bikeroom in the basement, which everyone in Frankfurt. In addition every house had shared tools and bench space in that room.
That is not to say that you are lying, but that if you are friends with the national cycling team, your views of what people have in their homes may be a bit skewed. More of my friends than not have fairly competent car repair areas in their garage, some just this side of a professional race shop, but to say that most Americans do is just silly.
02-12-19, 01:24 PM
#254
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The bottom line is who gives a darn what slangy terms of disparagement ("BSO", "Helmart") BF self-styled "experts" use to describe products and organizations that don't meet their allegedly superior personal standards?
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
I've seen some that didn't. Quite a long time ago, maybe back in the '90s. I was in a Walmart or some such place and happened to pass the bike display, and paused to look at one.
The first thing that I saw was the front wheel rim. It was made of steel, and the joint at the weld was misaligned sideways by something close to a sixteenth of an inch--and there was a stub of MIG wire sticking out of the weld. I could imagine that joint shaving slices off the rim brake pad, but it may have just snagged the thing and bent the whole brake arm away; the brake arms were thin stamped sheet metal which looked like you could bend them in your fingers.
I didn't look any further.
This is the true definition of a BSO: the people responsible for marketing that thing really didn't give a fat rat's @$$ whether any part of it was in the least bit functional. They sourced a Bicycle Shaped Object to be sold cheap to unknowing victims who could be injured just trying to use it once. And no, these BSOs cannot be repaired and were never meant to even be repairable; they are deliberately made to be disposable. They're literally an act of fraud.
To me, the minimum required to NOT be a BSO would mean that everything functioned as needed, AND that worn parts could be replaced. That is to say, it would have to be serviceable as opposed to being disposable by design.
02-12-19, 01:57 PM
#255
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I just asked a couple Germans that work with me at my German multinational employer. Not a single one had a bike shop in their houses in Germany.
That is not to say that you are lying, but that if you are friends with the national cycling team, your views of what people have in their homes may be a bit skewed. More of my friends than not have fairly competent car repair areas in their garage, some just this side of a professional race shop, but to say that most Americans do is just silly.
That is not to say that you are lying, but that if you are friends with the national cycling team, your views of what people have in their homes may be a bit skewed. More of my friends than not have fairly competent car repair areas in their garage, some just this side of a professional race shop, but to say that most Americans do is just silly.
Well, I have lived in at 10 locales in the US and while that doesn't allow me to make a gross sweeping generalisation for 320m+ ppl, it does allow a distinct comparison between the US and the EU.
If anything thinks that's silly, I applaud you but think you don't know of what you speak.
02-12-19, 02:28 PM
#256
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Ah ok, that makes more sense. I think it was more of a language issue than anything. Yes, I've lived in apartments in the US with such a room, didn't realize you were talking about apartments instead of individual homes and bike storage areas.
02-12-19, 04:06 PM
#257
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The bottom line is who gives a darn what slangy terms of disparagement ("BSO", "Helmart") BF self-styled "experts" use to describe products and organizations that don't meet their allegedly superior personal standards?
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
Constant and gratuitous use of these terms in order to cast aspersions reveals more about poster-experts who cop an attitude towards the products other people buy, and by inference towards the people allegedly so uninformed or ignorant as to shop for and buy products inferior to that preferred by the allegedly smart guys.
You are inferring, but that doesn’t mean they are implying...
I don’t feel bad about disparaging BSOs, because like some of the other posters, I have also spent time and effort making them work for me and for my family at various points due to lack of budget UNTIL I became more savvy, experienced at wrenching and able to discern the differences between bikes and parts that WERE easier to work with and worth the time and (still very low) expense. So to say that people who disparage BSOs are doing so because they’re either 1. Snobs or 2. LBS-evangelists is reductive and insulting.
If someone wants to know whether they should buy one of those junky things, I’d tell them no unless you can’t afford a bit more, or won’t buy something better-designed but used and learn to spruce it up, or AT LEAST understand that what you’re being sold is like a junk facsimile of something much pricier, and that you’re being fooled. That a simple, less flashy bike that was made with function in mind would be a better way to go for a lot of reasons.
02-12-19, 05:06 PM
#259
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[left]
Hey, would you stop doing that? Stop asserting that everyone who looks askance at crappy BSO bikes is commenting on the buyers of BSOs?
You are inferring, but that doesn’t mean they are implying...
I don’t feel bad about disparaging BSOs, because like some of the other posters, I have also spent time and effort making them work for me and for my family at various points due to lack of budget UNTIL I became more savvy, experienced at wrenching and able to discern the differences between bikes and parts that WERE easier to work with and worth the time and (still very low) expense. So to say that people who disparage BSOs are doing so because they’re either 1. Snobs or 2. LBS-evangelists is reductive and insulting.
If someone wants to know whether they should buy one of those junky things, I’d tell them no unless you can’t afford a bit more, or won’t buy something better-designed but used and learn to spruce it up, or AT LEAST understand that what you’re being sold is like a junk facsimile of something much pricier, and that you’re being fooled.
Hey, would you stop doing that? Stop asserting that everyone who looks askance at crappy BSO bikes is commenting on the buyers of BSOs?
You are inferring, but that doesn’t mean they are implying...
I don’t feel bad about disparaging BSOs, because like some of the other posters, I have also spent time and effort making them work for me and for my family at various points due to lack of budget UNTIL I became more savvy, experienced at wrenching and able to discern the differences between bikes and parts that WERE easier to work with and worth the time and (still very low) expense. So to say that people who disparage BSOs are doing so because they’re either 1. Snobs or 2. LBS-evangelists is reductive and insulting.
If someone wants to know whether they should buy one of those junky things, I’d tell them no unless you can’t afford a bit more, or won’t buy something better-designed but used and learn to spruce it up, or AT LEAST understand that what you’re being sold is like a junk facsimile of something much pricier, and that you’re being fooled.
02-12-19, 05:22 PM
#260
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If the lived in a major city, then should have a kellerraum and a shared bike storage room with tools. Or maybe they lived in a poor building, I'm not sure.
Well, I have lived in at 10 locales in the US and while that doesn't allow me to make a gross sweeping generalisation for 320m+ ppl, it does allow a distinct comparison between the US and the EU.
If anything thinks that's silly, I applaud you but think you don't know of what you speak.
Well, I have lived in at 10 locales in the US and while that doesn't allow me to make a gross sweeping generalisation for 320m+ ppl, it does allow a distinct comparison between the US and the EU.
If anything thinks that's silly, I applaud you but think you don't know of what you speak.
02-12-19, 05:37 PM
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That’s the point: it should be possible to have a discussion about BSOs and offer some insight on them, even if you’re negative about them, without having one’s motives questioned. I have no agenda and am not in the pay of the LBS-lobbyist-mafia!
02-12-19, 06:04 PM
#262
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How many locales in Germany, outside of Frankfurt, have you lived in, not just visited or spent vacation time? How long did you live there? Long enough to make gross sweeping generalizations about the shopping preferences of the people of Germany as well as its housing stock?
Thus, I would expect that most people have access to a Kellerraum/bike room and shared tools from the Hausmiester (house master / super) and would fix their own bikes with greater frequency that most other nationalities.
I've also owned in Germany and made out quite well every with all of the crazy fees as prices have rising around 10% year for the last few years. The was especially noticeable in central FFM where average priced new build flats went from 600k to about 900k EUR in a 3/4-year window.
02-13-19, 08:36 AM
#263
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Hmm. I get the joke you’re making, but I’m unclear about whether you actually think my intentions are not pure?
That’s the point: it should be possible to have a discussion about BSOs and offer some insight on them, even if you’re negative about them, without having one’s motives questioned. I have no agenda and am not in the pay of the LBS-lobbyist-mafia!
Maybe even some of the BSO/Walmart bashers who are employed by an LBS, or emotionally attached to bicycle brands sold at LBS, are pure of heart too.
02-13-19, 09:04 AM
#264
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If the lived in a major city, then should have a kellerraum and a shared bike storage room with tools. Or maybe they lived in a poor building, I'm not sure.
Well, I have lived in at 10 locales in the US and while that doesn't allow me to make a gross sweeping generalisation for 320m+ ppl, it does allow a distinct comparison between the US and the EU.
If anything thinks that's silly, I applaud you but think you don't know of what you speak.
Well, I have lived in at 10 locales in the US and while that doesn't allow me to make a gross sweeping generalisation for 320m+ ppl, it does allow a distinct comparison between the US and the EU.
If anything thinks that's silly, I applaud you but think you don't know of what you speak.
I think people are much more hands-on over here in Europe.
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
02-13-19, 09:58 AM
#265
Banned
Hold on there a second, Buckaroo! I recall a rather sweeping generalization you made recently
So are you talking all of Europe or only Germany? Your statement is the silly one. It implies that every person in Europe is a master mechanic. I don't believe that anymore than I would believe the sweeping generalization that every German is a master beer maker or that every French citizen is a Michelin star chef. Some people in Europe know how to work on bikes. Some people in the US know how to work on bikes. Some people in the US even know a lot about bikes. Sometimes we even start trends and invent new bicycle sports from whole cloth.
So are you talking all of Europe or only Germany? Your statement is the silly one. It implies that every person in Europe is a master mechanic. I don't believe that anymore than I would believe the sweeping generalization that every German is a master beer maker or that every French citizen is a Michelin star chef. Some people in Europe know how to work on bikes. Some people in the US know how to work on bikes. Some people in the US even know a lot about bikes. Sometimes we even start trends and invent new bicycle sports from whole cloth.
02-13-19, 10:50 AM
#266
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02-13-19, 02:05 PM
#267
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Yeah, München, Hamburg and Berlin. 62% of people in Germany live in flats as of 2007, so the generalision would be that anyone in a house is in the minority including the spoken to by another poster. Also, that data is old and there is currently a significant housing crunch in the "neuen Bundesländer" due to the additional of 1.2M migrants. Thus, I would suspect that number is possibly now closer to 65%.
Thus, I would expect that most people have access to a Kellerraum/bike room and shared tools from the Hausmiester (house master / super) and would fix their own bikes with greater frequency that most other nationalities.
Thus, I would expect that most people have access to a Kellerraum/bike room and shared tools from the Hausmiester (house master / super) and would fix their own bikes with greater frequency that most other nationalities.
02-13-19, 02:44 PM
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02-13-19, 03:51 PM
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This train wreck has gone on long enough.
Thread closed.
Thread closed.
