Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

Best non-proline frames question

Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

Best non-proline frames question

Old 07-01-19, 08:59 AM
  #1  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
Thread Starter
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower US 48
Posts: 336

Bikes: 4 good ones, 1 junker

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Best non-proline frames question

I have been following the rambling debate over department store bikes vs., for lack of a better term, “proline” bikes for a while.

With the stated assumption that everyone will assume the proline (Giant, Trek, other et al ad nauseum) frames are the best quality, the following question remains:

”Which frames are considered the best among the entry and mid-line bikes found at the big box stores?”

Please note in my signature that I own several bikes that cover the gamut. All of them work fine if the maintenance is kept up. I’m just curious about the nuances of the stated question related to frame quality. Thanks!

Last edited by BookFinder; 07-01-19 at 10:04 AM. Reason: Added italics and undline to emphasize the frames focus of my question.
BookFinder is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 09:08 AM
  #2  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,278 Times in 798 Posts
Look around... does the store have a bike service department ?
fietsbob is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 09:54 AM
  #3  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
Thread Starter
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower US 48
Posts: 336

Bikes: 4 good ones, 1 junker

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Look around... does the store have a bike service department ?
There are four “LBS” shops in a neighboring town that carry various brands.

Of the so-called big-box stores, Dick’s is the only one with an in-house workbench.

Otherwise, help me understand how your question sheds light on the frame quality of the “non-proline” bikes?
BookFinder is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 10:25 AM
  #4  
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 11,064

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount, Salsa Timberjack, Diamondback Expert TG, Burley Samba

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2020 Post(s)
Liked 597 Times in 414 Posts
There are levels of quality in frames all across the spectrum, and have been forever. Two things about it, tubing and joinery. One result - more expensive frames are lighter while not giving up strength.

Even before the bike boom there were different levels of tube sets, "gas pipe" bikes at department stores and house brands of hi-tensile and straight gauge chromoly before you got to butted Reynolds or whatever. Nicer frames got forged pieces at the ends which are pretty stout without being heavy, while cheap frames get stamped ends that bend easily so they need to be pretty big.

And then there's the joinery, and that can vary a lot... Walmart bikes have terrible looking welds, but old electro-forged Schwinns were not exactly fancy but their welds look great because of the process. The people here who like old fancy Raleighs are often bemused by the brazing. But in general a nicer bike should have nicer joinery. A nice brazed bike has lugs with filed points, and upper level Cannondales have the welds smoothed out, for instance.
__________________
Genesis 49:16-17
Darth Lefty is offline  
Likes For Darth Lefty:
Old 07-01-19, 10:48 AM
  #5  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1595 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times in 148 Posts
The question as asked is unanswerable. Literally it depends. And it depends on a lot more than the 'brand' with these types of bikes. It depends on the day of the week, the phase of the moon ... seriously. Pick two department store brands and chances are good both were made at the same factory! So the only difference is what kind of day the guy who spot welded the bottom bracket was having. If not so good your frame may fail there one day. Or not. If you want to buy a cheap bike or bike frame buy the one that appeals to your eye the most. Call it good. Why make it any more complicated than that?
Leisesturm is offline  
Likes For Leisesturm:
Old 07-01-19, 10:55 AM
  #6  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,264
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,348 Times in 703 Posts
Any of the other frames that correspond to the other 19 naturally-occurring L-amino acids found in proteins should also work.

Are we talking about trans-proline or cis?
wgscott is offline  
Likes For wgscott:
Old 07-01-19, 11:07 AM
  #7  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 5,885

Bikes: '71 Jeunet 640, '74 Fuji Special Road Racer, '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Liked 619 Times in 350 Posts
Originally Posted by BookFinder View Post
...With the stated assumption that everyone will assume the proline ... frames are the best quality...
So, this assumption has several flaws that render the discussion useless. One is that the term "quality" corresponds in some way to "value" to its rider. The top professional frames have certain characteristics that are reflected in the performance of the frame when integrated to the top-level componentry and fitted to the rider's physique that can produce an impressive rider-bicycle system that performs at the very top tier of the sport. Top professional frames also have a consistent set of quality metrics that relate to precision of the dimensioning, finish, reliability/longevity for the intended use, etc.

Inexpensive frames also have a lesser expression of these very same characteristics, but at lower levels of expectation. Frankly, the riders who buy these bicycles likely have quite a bit lower ability to perceive the differences in any meaningful way. So, it all works out.

But the basic question is unanswerable unless you define your terms with greater precision.
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 12:07 PM
  #8  
Kedosto
Ambulophobic
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Leandro, CA
Posts: 1,248
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 492 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 121 Posts
Originally Posted by BookFinder View Post
I have been following the rambling debate over department store bikes vs., for lack of a better term, “proline” bikes for a while.

With the stated assumption that everyone will assume the proline (Giant, Trek, other et al ad nauseum) frames are the best quality, the following question remains:

”Which frames are considered the best among the entry and mid-line bikes found at the big box stores?”

Please note in my signature that I own several bikes that cover the gamut. All of them work fine if the maintenance is kept up. I’m just curious about the nuances of the stated question related to frame quality. Thanks!

In order to answer the question, one would be required to be thoroughly experienced with big box bicycles; experienced enough to appreciate the subtleties which could be assumed to exist between brands. I suspect few here carry such knowledge as the vast majority spend their time and money on the "proline" cycles. No doubt you'll receive plenty of responses, the bulk of which will be condescending or outright bashing -- few will be helpful.

I've been around cycling long enough to have been around big box bikes (BBB), but only in the context of repair or assistance for a neighbor or friend. I cannot provide a meaningful opinion on the frame quality as it has never been an issue. Recalling my BBB experiences, never has there been an issue with the frame. Sure, they are heavy, but they're built to a price point so in that regard the goal is met. I don't ever recall being shocked by ugly or obvious poor welds, but then again I don't expect to see $5k titanium bike weld quality either -- BBB are price point bikes.

I'm no expert, but I'd bet that BBB frames are made in the same factories as the "proline" bikes but with cheaper (heavier) materials.


-Kedosto
Kedosto is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 12:21 PM
  #9  
fietsbob
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,278 Times in 798 Posts
Remember Taipei Taiwan is not the same government, city and country as Beijing /Shanghai China...

but there has been a consolidation the many brands coming out of Taiwan, an Island,

are made by just a few very large manufacturers,,

and undoubtedly something similar has taken place on The Mainland , one party state..
fietsbob is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 12:40 PM
  #10  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1595 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times in 148 Posts
Originally Posted by Kedosto View Post
No doubt you'll receive plenty of responses, the bulk of which will be condescending or outright bashing -- few will be helpful.
Nice work, bashing the efforts of other posters you didn't bother to read. Had you done so you might have noticed that none contained any 'bashing' or 'condescension'. Characterizing a question as vague or unanswerable without more qualification is not normally considered 'bashing'.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 12:49 PM
  #11  
Leisesturm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 4,446
Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1595 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times in 148 Posts
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Any of the other frames that correspond to the other 19 naturally-occurring L-amino acids found in proteins should also work.

Are we talking about trans-proline or cis?
I may have misspoke earlier. This answer was not helpful. Indicative of some erudition on behalf of the poster, possibly. Entertaining ... possibly. Alas, ultimately unhelpful, however.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 12:54 PM
  #12  
Darth Lefty 
Disco Infiltrator
 
Darth Lefty's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Folsom CA
Posts: 11,064

Bikes: Schwinn Paramount, Salsa Timberjack, Diamondback Expert TG, Burley Samba

Mentioned: 65 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2020 Post(s)
Liked 597 Times in 414 Posts
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
Any of the other frames that correspond to the other 19 naturally-occurring L-amino acids found in proteins should also work.

Are we talking about trans-proline or cis?
I’m confused, I thought we were talking about R/C car bodies and which tires are better for blue groove tracks
Darth Lefty is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 01:02 PM
  #13  
burnthesheep
Newbie racer
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 1,944

Bikes: Propel, red is faster

Mentioned: 32 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 894 Post(s)
Liked 612 Times in 408 Posts
REI..........they have their own in-store brand these days from greenway cruisers all the way up to pretty expensive stuff. They also have a workshop in the store.

Then again, a brand new low-end Trek or Giant is still probably in the long run going to cost less than a department store bike after you have to toss the department store one in the trash when one of the crap hard-to-replace components fail.

There's a reason the Giants and Treks and such use the components they use. They can be maintained and replaced.

Department stores put parts on that the expectation is you will toss the entire bike in the trash before you need a new cassette, chain, brake pads, or shift cables. Shoot, I don't know of anyone I've ever know who owned a Walmart style BSO who even ever needed to lube the chain! The most common failure being a popped tire and a shock at the price of a tire and change at a LBS. I'd bet even then the owner is 2 seconds from considering tossing it in the dumpster behind the shop.

It's not necessarily about being "fancy" or "racy", it's about practicality and reliability. A Walmart or other "BSO" isn't meant to go 1000 to 10000 miles per year. It's meant to go maybe 1000 to 2000 miles......once, ever, over the course of maybe 10 years of a person riding for 15 minutes a time in the neighborhood. It's disposable in nearly entirely.

With the exception of some DA components, 105 and then Ultegra carry an expectation of some big miles per year on those groupsets. The cost per mile possibly cheaper than if you tried to force a BSO to go 6000 miles in a year.

Remember, you can always buy someone else's mistake. A new Giant Contend is like $650. I'd suspect used could be had for $400.

All that to say..........the frame on a department store BSO won't matter when it's in the trash anyway after less than 1000 miles of use.
burnthesheep is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 02:03 PM
  #14  
shelbyfv
Banned.
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 7,172
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1810 Post(s)
Liked 1,182 Times in 672 Posts
I doubt a cyclist with any ability to judge gives much thought to frame quality of BSOs from box stores. What would be the point? A competent and knowledgeable cyclist on a budget will go used. There are folks who buy bikes from box stores, cycling enthusiasts aren't among them.
shelbyfv is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 07:55 PM
  #15  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
Thread Starter
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower US 48
Posts: 336

Bikes: 4 good ones, 1 junker

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Well, I appreciate the feedback. Reading back over my question and the responses, the question might have been phrased more concisely by asking, "What physical clues does one look for to identify a solidly built frame?"

Either way, the feedback is informative. Thanks again.
__________________
Current bikes: '80's era Cannondale police bike; '97 Diamondback Topanga SE; '03 Schwinn mongrel MTB; '03 Specialized Hard Rock (the wife's)
Past bikes: '97 Giant ATX 840 project bike; '01 Giant TCR1 SL; and a truckload of miscellaneous bikes used up by the kids and grand-kids

Status quo is the mental bastion of the intellectually lethargic...
BookFinder is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 08:04 PM
  #16  
ramzilla
Senior Member
 
ramzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Fernandina Beach FL
Posts: 3,299

Bikes: Vintage Japanese Bicycles, Tange, Ishiwata, Kuwahara

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked 214 Times in 171 Posts
Since about 1950, the best cheap bikes wear the Fuji brand.
ramzilla is offline  
Old 07-01-19, 09:01 PM
  #17  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
Thread Starter
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower US 48
Posts: 336

Bikes: 4 good ones, 1 junker

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by ramzilla View Post
Since about 1950, the best cheap bikes wear the Fuji brand.
__________________
Current bikes: '80's era Cannondale police bike; '97 Diamondback Topanga SE; '03 Schwinn mongrel MTB; '03 Specialized Hard Rock (the wife's)
Past bikes: '97 Giant ATX 840 project bike; '01 Giant TCR1 SL; and a truckload of miscellaneous bikes used up by the kids and grand-kids

Status quo is the mental bastion of the intellectually lethargic...
BookFinder is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 06:44 AM
  #18  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 10,731

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4228 Post(s)
Liked 1,257 Times in 782 Posts
Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Remember Taipei Taiwan is not the same government, city and country as Beijing /Shanghai China...

but there has been a consolidation the many brands coming out of Taiwan, an Island,

are made by just a few very large manufacturers,,

and undoubtedly something similar has taken place on The Mainland , one party state..
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 06:47 AM
  #19  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 10,731

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo

Mentioned: 94 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4228 Post(s)
Liked 1,257 Times in 782 Posts
Originally Posted by BookFinder View Post
Well, I appreciate the feedback. Reading back over my question and the responses, the question might have been phrased more concisely by asking, "What physical clues does one look for to identify a solidly built frame?"

Either way, the feedback is informative. Thanks again.
- the frame should be straight and aligned. All brazeons(bottle holders, rack holders, etc) should be properly chased and square for proper fit. The dropouts should be square and the rear wheel should sit in the middle of the rear triangle. The head tube should be on the same plane as the seat tube.

Thats about it from a frame perspective. You cant tell if welds are good or bad based just on how they look. If the frame is square, it will ride as nicely as it has the ability to and thats really what is important in the end.
mstateglfr is offline  
Likes For mstateglfr:
Old 07-02-19, 08:27 AM
  #20  
Kedosto
Ambulophobic
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Leandro, CA
Posts: 1,248
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 492 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 121 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
- the frame should be straight and aligned. All brazeons(bottle holders, rack holders, etc) should be properly chased and square for proper fit. The dropouts should be square and the rear wheel should sit in the middle of the rear triangle. The head tube should be on the same plane as the seat tube.

Thats about it from a frame perspective. You cant tell if welds are good or bad based just on how they look. If the frame is square, it will ride as nicely as it has the ability to and thats really what is important in the end.
Nailed it.
/thread


-Kedosto
Kedosto is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 10:39 AM
  #21  
Wilfred Laurier
Señor Member
 
Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,031
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 627 Post(s)
Liked 261 Times in 191 Posts
I have seen some darn ugly welds and joints on box store bikes - Huffy comes to mind in particular, as they used to have dropouts connected by crimping the chain and seat stays and spot welding.

Raleigh Canada made a lot of cheap steel frames for box stores, sold as Raleighs, and as Triumphs, among others. These had quite possibly the ugliest welds I have ever seen on a bike, but I do not recall seeing a failed frame, aside from some needing the rear triangle aligned.

But Raleigh doesn't make any of their own bikes now. All the box store bikes are made by contract manufacturers in Asia, and they are not great, but probable more than strong enough for regular riding. I believe they use cheaper materials but with much thicker tubes to make up for the material's lack of strength and for less precise QA during production... imagine a Giant brand aluminum frame, with engineers skilled at structural analysis and welding processes able to have strong frames made with thin walled, differentially butted and profiled members... now compare that to a company producing box store bikes - they will use much thicker aluminum to make up for the less-carefully welded and shaped tubes... the frame might weigh 2X or 3X more, but has the same likelihood of failure as the Giant.

Some things to look for that are indicative of poor quality are one-piece 'Ashtabula' cranksets and bottom brackets - these have never been put on good quality bikes AFAIK, and frame dropouts that are just cut or stamped from a flat plate, compared to dropouts that are forged or have an otherwise more complicated shape.
Wilfred Laurier is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 03:21 PM
  #22  
Phil_gretz
Journeyman Bike Commuter
 
Phil_gretz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Alexandria, VA
Posts: 5,885

Bikes: '71 Jeunet 640, '74 Fuji Special Road Racer, '79 Peugeot PXN10LE, '88 Fuji Saratoga, '13 Motobecane Fantom29 HT, '16 Motobecane Turino Pro Disc, '16 Motobecane Gran Premio Elite, '18 Velobuild VB-R-022

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 972 Post(s)
Liked 619 Times in 350 Posts
Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
...
Some things to look for that are indicative of poor quality are one-piece 'Ashtabula' cranksets and bottom brackets - these have never been put on good quality bikes ...
Um. Schwinn Super Sport?
Phil_gretz is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 04:09 PM
  #23  
BookFinder 
Lifelong wheel gazer ...
Thread Starter
 
BookFinder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lower US 48
Posts: 336

Bikes: 4 good ones, 1 junker

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 66 Post(s)
Liked 36 Times in 26 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
- the frame should be straight and aligned. All brazeons(bottle holders, rack holders, etc) should be properly chased and square for proper fit. The dropouts should be square and the rear wheel should sit in the middle of the rear triangle. The head tube should be on the same plane as the seat tube.

That's about it from a frame perspective. You cant tell if welds are good or bad based just on how they look. If the frame is square, it will ride as nicely as it has the ability to and that's really what is important in the end.
Thank you. This is the answer that gets to what I intended to ask.
Looking at the precision of the welds on my most recent bikes, I'm thinking the frames are welded using an automated process on a line.
__________________
Current bikes: '80's era Cannondale police bike; '97 Diamondback Topanga SE; '03 Schwinn mongrel MTB; '03 Specialized Hard Rock (the wife's)
Past bikes: '97 Giant ATX 840 project bike; '01 Giant TCR1 SL; and a truckload of miscellaneous bikes used up by the kids and grand-kids

Status quo is the mental bastion of the intellectually lethargic...
BookFinder is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 06:41 PM
  #24  
ramzilla
Senior Member
 
ramzilla's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Fernandina Beach FL
Posts: 3,299

Bikes: Vintage Japanese Bicycles, Tange, Ishiwata, Kuwahara

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 634 Post(s)
Liked 214 Times in 171 Posts
I've got an old Schwinn "Sidewinder" (26" wheeled 7 speed mountainbike) that I've been riding up & down the beach for the last ten years. I usually hose it down after a beach ride if enough sand and salt water get splashed on it. I bought it at WalMart. It's a steel bike that weighs a ton. I've changed the grip shifters to thumbies. Replaced shift & brake cables, brake calipers, seat, chain, freewheel, tires, tubes, etc., etc., etc.. Never had any problems getting brand new replacement parts or doing repairs. (Parts for it are cheap). Of course, being born in post WW2 1950's I learned how to repair my own bike by the time I was around 10 years old. My god, life was so different in the 60's than it is now. It's sad to see young kids now a days that don't even know how to operate a screwdriver. There's absolutely nothing wrong with most of the inexpensive Wally World bikes. (Of course, some of them really are trash). We're just living in a time when most people have no idea how to maintain and repair simple machines.
ramzilla is offline  
Old 07-02-19, 07:24 PM
  #25  
Last ride 76 
1/2 as far in 2x the time
 
Last ride 76's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Northern Bergen County, NJ
Posts: 1,936

Bikes: Yes, Please.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Liked 277 Times in 218 Posts
Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I doubt a cyclist with any ability to judge gives much thought to frame quality of BSOs from box stores. What would be the point? A competent and knowledgeable cyclist on a budget will go used. There are folks who buy bikes from box stores, cycling enthusiasts aren't among them.


Yup.
Last ride 76 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.