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Does 8 speed feel more solid than 9 speed?

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Does 8 speed feel more solid than 9 speed?

Old 05-10-20, 04:02 PM
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adlai
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Does 8 speed feel more solid than 9 speed?

Comparing my 8 speed bike to my 9 speed it does feel like the 8 speed is slightly more solid.

the thicker chain and more spacing between gears means that it shifts better and doesn’t skip between gears. The chain has never fallen off of the 8 speed while the 9 speed has had numerous chain falls and even a chain breakage.

I imagine that 10 and 11 speed are even worse.
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Old 05-10-20, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
Comparing my 8 speed bike to my 9 speed it does feel like the 8 speed is slightly more solid.

the thicker chain and more spacing between gears means that it shifts better and doesn’t skip between gears. The chain has never fallen off of the 8 speed while the 9 speed has had numerous chain falls and even a chain breakage.

I imagine that 10 and 11 speed are even worse.
I have noticed that one I got beyond 9 speed, I needed the derailleur hangar alignment tool more often. I never even owned one until 10 speed, and on my 11 speed bikes it gets used regularly.

Never noticed anything going from 8 to 9 though.
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Old 05-10-20, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
Comparing my 8 speed bike to my 9 speed it does feel like the 8 speed is slightly more solid.

the thicker chain and more spacing between gears means that it shifts better and doesn’t skip between gears. The chain has never fallen off of the 8 speed while the 9 speed has had numerous chain falls and even a chain breakage.

I imagine that 10 and 11 speed are even worse.
Sounds like an improperly adjusted front and rear derailleur. None of what you described is "normal".
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Old 05-10-20, 04:45 PM
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You just have a poorly adjusted bike. I have bikes with 10 and 11 speed groups on them and they shift flawlessly. I've ridden them in dirt for thousands of miles with no need for adjustments.
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Old 05-10-20, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Ross520 View Post
Sounds like an improperly adjusted front and rear derailleur. None of what you described is "normal".
It probably also is that the tighter tolerances required means that it falls out of alignment much easier.
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Old 05-10-20, 05:27 PM
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Since you asked, no.
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Old 05-10-20, 06:24 PM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
It probably also is that the tighter tolerances required means that it falls out of alignment much easier.
How does it fall out of alignment?
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Old 05-10-20, 06:59 PM
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In short, no.
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Old 05-10-20, 07:02 PM
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My Ti road bike which has Ultegra 11 speed hasn't been adjusted but once and only because I had a faulty front derailleur granted it is Di2. My 6 speed road bike has been super fiddly and I am always having to adjust it.

Maintain your bikes and you shouldn't have the issues.
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Old 05-10-20, 08:15 PM
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I have 6-, 8- and 9-speed bikes with just one 10-speed in my garage. I'll be hanging on to 8- and 9-speed as long as possible; I like the feel of greater distance and more solid feel of the shifting. My 10-speed bike works just fine (I use MicroSHIFT bar-end shifters) but I just find myself shifting a lot more. I prefer the less expensive chains and cassettes of 8/9-speed as well.
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Old 05-10-20, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
It probably also is that the tighter tolerances required means that it falls out of alignment much easier.
Why would they fall out of alignment? If your bike is built well and you keep everything tight and right ... what is going to "fall out of alignment"? I have three bikes with 11 speeds, a tern and a nine, an 8 and a seven. They all work. They all stay working.
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Old 05-10-20, 08:48 PM
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Guess I am the oddball, here, but I definitely find my mtbs drivetrains need more frequent love since going from 9 speed to 11 speed. I’m running XT on one bike and NX on the other.

Sure, when everything is properly tuned they all work fine, but I need to do it more often with 11.

The main thing I notice is 11 seems much more sensitive to the hanger not being perfectly straight.

Its not a big deal, though, and it is worth it to be able to fo 1x.
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Old 05-10-20, 09:16 PM
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You think 8 speed shifts good, you should try a fixed speed bike!
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Old 05-10-20, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Why would they fall out of alignment? If your bike is built well and you keep everything tight and right ... what is going to "fall out of alignment"? I have three bikes with 11 speeds, a tern and a nine, an 8 and a seven. They all work. They all stay working.
The biggest thing that would cause them to come out of adjustment would be poor quality cables and housings that stretch and compress more with age. Or clamp bolt isn't right enough.
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Old 05-11-20, 08:35 PM
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Not necessary poor quality cables. Even good cables eventually will wear out and the first sign will be less crisp shifting, as if things got slightly out of adjustment. However, it is pointless to adjust anything at this point - cable(s) should be replaced instead.
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Old 05-12-20, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
Comparing my 8 speed bike to my 9 speed it does feel like the 8 speed is slightly more solid...I imagine that 10 and 11 speed are even worse.
Not really. What you described is an improperly adjusted drivetrain. Once set up correctly, 11-speed is solid as heck.

But, if you want solid, get a fixed gear with a 1/8" chain.
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Old 05-12-20, 01:22 PM
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And why, cables don't wear on 8- or 9-speeds? As the owner of bikes with everything from 7- to 11 cogs .... no more need be said, eh?

Anyone who thinks 11-speed is more fragile, less, sturdy, whatever .... is simply biased and self-deluded. The world is full of riders who started with 2x6 and have evolved to 2x11 .... for some reason, very few decided not to.Some bunch of reasons, perhaps ...
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Old 05-12-20, 02:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
And why, cables don't wear on 8- or 9-speeds? As the owner of bikes with everything from 7- to 11 cogs .... no more need be said, eh?

Anyone who thinks 11-speed is more fragile, less, sturdy, whatever .... is simply biased and self-deluded. The world is full of riders who started with 2x6 and have evolved to 2x11 .... for some reason, very few decided not to.Some bunch of reasons, perhaps ...
My 11 speeds take more frequent tinkering than my 8 and 9 speeds. Not a lot, and I still consider drivetrains to be pretty low maintenance overall, but more nonetheless.

What am I delusional about? Are you suggesting I am just imagining this?

Not even sure why this is hard to believe. Closer spaced cogs means less tolerance for changes in cable tension and RD hangar alignment.
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Old 05-12-20, 11:16 PM
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All I can say is that I set up my bikes properly and they work. The idea that things with closer tolerances don't work as well or go out of adjustment more frequently, Because of closer tolerances, defies logic. Every car on the road today has engine tolerances Much closer than fifty years ago ... and last two to three times as long.

Anyway ... whatever. I have 7,8,9,10, and 11-speed, and I don't have problems with any of them. Sorry 'bout your problems, guys.
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Old 05-13-20, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
All I can say is that I set up my bikes properly and they work. The idea that things with closer tolerances don't work as well or go out of adjustment more frequently, Because of closer tolerances, defies logic. Every car on the road today has engine tolerances Much closer than fifty years ago ... and last two to three times as long.

Anyway ... whatever. I have 7,8,9,10, and 11-speed, and I don't have problems with any of them. Sorry 'bout your problems, guys.
You are not using “tolerance” the same way I was. You are referring to manufacturing tolerances. I am referring to robustness of design, which makes something more tolerant of less-than ideal environmental conditions, things getting out of spec, or high manufacturing tolerances. The auto analogy is not relevant to this. I’m not comparing a modern RD to one from 1970.

The two primary things that cause rear drivetrains to go out of adjustment are the cable tension/condition and hangar alignment. These are exactly the same whether you bolt up 8 speed or 11 sp The “tolerances” (along the lines of how you were using the term) of these two things are identical regardless of which RD is bolted to them.

The difference is that more widely spaced cogs are more robust (tolerant to changes, as I was using the term) in terms of cable tension/condition and hangar alignment.

I thought it was generally understood that 11 and 12 sp were more sensitive to hangar alignment. They are in my experience.

As I said, its not a big deal, but it is there. Maybe I am just harder on my stuff than you. The 11sp bikes I have are both MTBs and see hard use. But that was also true of my 9-speed stuff that I ran up until the last couple years.

I imagine for road use the difference may be much less and in many cases non-existent in practical terms.
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Old 05-13-20, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
All I can say is that I set up my bikes properly and they work. The idea that things with closer tolerances don't work as well or go out of adjustment more frequently, Because of closer tolerances, defies logic. Every car on the road today has engine tolerances Much closer than fifty years ago ... and last two to three times as long.

Anyway ... whatever. I have 7,8,9,10, and 11-speed, and I don't have problems with any of them. Sorry 'bout your problems, guys.
The initial batch of Army Armalite rifles had a problem with fouling up because they were machined to such tight tolerances. The AK47 in contrast had such bad tolerances that it could be thrown in mud and still work.
BMW cars are notorious for being tough to maintain. The tight tolerances explain a lot of it.
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Old 05-13-20, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
The initial batch of Army Armalite rifles had a problem with fouling up because they were machined to such tight tolerances. The AK47 in contrast had such bad tolerances that it could be thrown in mud and still work.
BMW cars are notorious for being tough to maintain. The tight tolerances explain a lot of it.
Certainly true that if thrown in the mud a single speed will work better than a derailleur bike!
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Old 05-13-20, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by adlai View Post
The initial batch of Army Armalite rifles had a problem with fouling up because they were machined to such tight tolerances. The AK47 in contrast had such bad tolerances that it could be thrown in mud and still work.
BMW cars are notorious for being tough to maintain. The tight tolerances explain a lot of it.
Actually, the original M-16 was supposed to have a chromed breech and a cleaning kit. The government decided to cut the chromed breech to cut costs, and didn't issue the guns with cleaning kits, which unfortunately cost a lot of GIs their lives and/or health.

However, tight tolerances were not the issue .... poor maintenance and training was.

Also, the AK is a rugged gun ... but if you want accuracy downrange, get an AR (assuming you are not in the military and cannot get an M-4 or M-16) because those tighter tolerances mean that things fly straight and true. If you design a weapon to be used by huge masses of poorly trained soldiers which can be mass-produced in primitive factories by unskilled workers .... sort of like, say, the Soviet Union right after WW II, then you get an AK.

If you live in a technologically advanced nation with relatively high-tech production capability .... we got the M-16, and say what you will, it is Still in service today and seems to be working just fine in all the harshest battlefield environments in the world.

Of course you know that Russia redesigned the AK into the AK-74, firing 5.56 rounds .... Hmmmm ...

but the AK is incredibly popular around the world because it is cheap to reproduce. Knock-offs are available everywhere, and they all work as well as the original.

However, the AR is also exceedingly popular .... and is used for a number of shooting sports, including hunting ... because shooters can actually hit their targets with it.

As for BMWs ... ALL cars nowadays use much tighter tolerances. And I have quite a few friends who are into sports cars .... BMWs don't seem to be any more prone to breakdown than say, Porsches .... not sure where the idea that BMWs were particularly unreliable came from .... how long ago was that?

Or .... talk to anyone who owned any British sports car ....

By the way, BMW Motorcycles, produced to exceedingly high tolerances, have long been famous for their reliability .........

In any case ... the idea that sloppy tolerances make for a better machine .... yeah, any time you want to progress beyond the neolithic age, feel free.
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Old 05-13-20, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
You are not using “tolerance” the same way I was. You are referring to manufacturing tolerances. I am referring to robustness of design, which makes something more tolerant of less-than ideal environmental conditions, things getting out of spec, or high manufacturing tolerances.
Okay.
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The two primary things that cause rear drivetrains to go out of adjustment are the cable tension/condition and hangar alignment. These are exactly the same whether you bolt up 8 speed or 11 sp The “tolerances” (along the lines of how you were using the term) of these two things are identical regardless of which RD is bolted to them.
Yes, derailleur hangers are not more robust nor are cables, for the lower-speed designs ....

Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
The difference is that more widely spaced cogs are more robust (tolerant to changes, as I was using the term) in terms of cable tension/condition and hangar alignment.

As I said, its not a big deal, but it is there. Maybe I am just harder on my stuff than you. The 11sp bikes I have are both MTBs and see hard use. But that was also true of my 9-speed stuff that I ran up until the last couple years.
Not "more robust" as in 'stronger" (which is what the word means) but more tolerant of bad adjustment. I have never ridden anything more than 8-speed on a serious MTB .... but when do you see a cut-off? Nine, ten? When did the derailleurs stop working?

We need to move this part of the discussion to the MTB page to get a really significant sample size, methinks.
Originally Posted by Kapusta View Post
I imagine for road use the difference may be much less and in many cases non-existent in practical terms.
Seems likely, as I have never had any problem with any system on a road bike.
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Old 05-13-20, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
Okay.
Yes, derailleur hangers are not more robust nor are cables, for the lower-speed designs ....

Not "more robust" as in 'stronger" (which is what the word means) but more tolerant of bad adjustment. I have never ridden anything more than 8-speed on a serious MTB .... but when do you see a cut-off? Nine, ten? When did the derailleurs stop working?

We need to move this part of the discussion to the MTB page to get a really significant sample size, methinks.
Seems likely, as I have never had any problem with any system on a road bike.
Robust can mean literally "stronger" but in design is also means the ability to handle unforeseen circumstances. As far as "bad adjustment".... well, what IS bad adjustment? Its when you you don't adjust it precisely enough to work right. ANY system does not work when poorly adjusted. The difference is how precise the the adjustment need to be, and (far more importantly in my experience) how precise that adjustment needs to STAY. Cables wear and bed in. Hangars bend. ***** happens.. I've never had to align a new hangar until I went to 11 speed. So what is "bad adjustment" for 11 speed in some cases is just fine adjustment for 9.

I never said "derailleurs stop working". If you want an honest discussion, please don't mis-characterize what I said. I am not interested in debating straw-man arguments. Nor does there need to be a "cut-off-line". That is like asking where the cutoff for "heavy" bike or wheel is. I am sure it depends on a whole lot of factors, and for some people/bikes/conditions it may be 14 speed. But for ME.... it happened going from 9 to 11 on my MTBs.

I don't need more sample size to know what I am experiencing. In two separate cases, (switching my MTB from 9 to 11 and switching a road bike from 9 to 10) a hangar that worked just fine with the 9 speed cassette needed to be tweaked to work well with the 10 or 11. Again, I am a little shocked that it would surprise anyone that closer spaced cogs would be more sensitive to a hangar out of alignment.
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