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SPD holes brand differences

Old 08-07-20, 02:15 AM
  #1  
dirtydozen
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SPD holes brand differences

Hello,

I am struggling with some right big toe pain after 80km.

I had Mavic crossmax shoes, they were too big so I changed them for Mavic boa SPD, sizing looks perfect but I still have right big toe pain.

Over the internet I read a lot of times that cleats should be as far back as possible to minimize injuries and for instance big toe pain.

I also read (but those posts are close to 10 years old), that you can't go as far back with Mavic's than with other brands in general.

So my question is : with what shoe brand can I buy SPD shoes that will allow me to place the cleat further back (towards my heel) ?

Thanks
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Old 08-07-20, 05:37 AM
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I've never heard of putting cleats as far back as possible, I've always placed the widest part of the foot over the axle; this is rarely the furthest back on the shoe.
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Old 08-07-20, 05:56 AM
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My current Shimano shoes allow the cleats to be more to the rear than some I've had. I don't know that you can generalize by brand. In the past I've modified some shoes with a drill and Dremel. You might try that if you like the shoes otherwise.
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Old 08-07-20, 06:17 AM
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Pedaling dynamics are based on having the "ball" of the great/big toe over the pedal spindle.

One suggestion would be to use some method to cant the foot.
Either inside the shoe with simple under the insole shim(cardboard or plastic would be a way to test this)
or an aftermarket product for the same.

Canting the cleat itself, is an option as well.


Custom, ortho insoles would also be a potential solution.

rusty
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Old 08-07-20, 06:34 AM
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indyfabz
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Originally Posted by 100bikes View Post
Pedaling dynamics are based on having the "ball" of the great/big toe over the pedal spindle.
Please tell me you meant what most people call "the ball of the foot," which is located between the toes and the arch.


Last edited by indyfabz; 08-07-20 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 08-07-20, 03:42 PM
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The center point where the two feet come together near the great toe.
The feet in the photo are slightly canted, but if they were vertical, the spindle of the pedal would also
Hit the main part of the foot, just beneath where the small toe extends.

Please note that the photo shows, as in real life, two different size feet.

It isn't a perfect science, so it may take an adjustment or two,

Saddle alignment, both height, pitch and fore and aft, and cleat position are linked.
Comfort will dictate individual positioning.

As you can see from out conversation there can be a lot involved in these adjustments and recommendations.
It is why LBS charge what they do for fitting a bicycle.
rusty
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Old 08-07-20, 08:20 PM
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indyfabz
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Look closely. The photo shows one foot closer to the camera than the other. With that said, many peopleís feet are not the same size. Thatís a no-brainer.

But the point was, that itís the ball of the foot, not the ball of the toe.
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Old 08-07-20, 09:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 100bikes View Post
Pedaling dynamics are based on having the "ball" of the great/big toe over the pedal spindle.

....
rusty
Cyclists have been varying where the pedal spindle sit for 120 years or more, There is no one "right" place. Track sprinters push their cleats forward, feet back. The "rule" for road racers was having the ball of the foot between roughly a cm ahead of the spindle and directly over, so the cleat back. One proponent now suggests mid-foot for a lot of people. We riders vary a lot. Expecting one standard for cleat location? Does that work anywhere else in the bicycle fit world?

Ben
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Old 08-08-20, 05:33 AM
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Originally Posted by 100bikes View Post
Pedaling dynamics are based on having the "ball" of the great/big toe over the pedal spindle.
rusty
Not so.




​​​​​
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Old 08-08-20, 06:48 AM
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There are always going to be those who propose they have a better idea.
Oval chainrings come to mind. I have been through at least 5 iterations of them in my bicycle industry career.

Look at the foot positioning of the any of worlds top cyclists- racers in any venue- road, track, atb, bmx or triathlon.
This position would not allow the rider to power through the pedal circle.

Not one uses the positioning shown in the advertisement for the next great thing in pedals.

This design would be equivalent to someone running flat footed.

Comfort perhaps, not efficacy of mechanics or energy.
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Old 08-08-20, 08:55 AM
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Most recumbent cyclists move their cleats back as far as they'll go, or even enlarge the slots in their shoes to move the cleats back further. AFAIK you can do that with any shoe. Don't forget that there is a lateral adjustment too. You want the foot in on the pedal as far as you can without hitting the crank arm. Having the foot too far to the outside will concentrate pressure on the big toe.

PS if you can't center your foot laterally over the pedal because of wide feet or a toe-out, consider pedal extenders.
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Old 08-08-20, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by BlazingPedals View Post

PS if you can't center your foot laterally over the pedal because of wide feet or a toe-out, consider pedal extenders.
This would also be true depending on how your hip joint allows your femur to remain parallel to the cranks. For example, my left one does not. The natural motion of my knee, because of this, is outward from the bike.

Therefore, I used SPD-SL pedals with a built in +4mm and I added a +1mm washer to each side. Really helped a lot.

Glenn
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Old 08-08-20, 10:54 AM
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This is a pretty good discussion of the factors involved.


tl;dr: "You'll never have a problem if it's (cleat) too far back, but you might start to develop a problem if it's too far forward.
Starting point for this fitter = 13-18mm behind 1st metatarsal joint- sz42.
Cleat further back= lower seat height = more aero, and possibly more hamstring engagement= less weight on hands. Slightly less jump in sprint, no difference in overall power.



IMO, cleat holes in shoes tend to be based on wrong concept. Putting cleats anywhere near their forward position on the shoe is the equivalent of walking on one's toes all day. I doubt anyone has ever wished that they could move the cleats further forward (than the shoe allows), while many wish them further back.


To OP: Try more arch support. Tape pieces of bar tape or equal to underside of insole until it is quite noticeable.

Last edited by woodcraft; 08-08-20 at 10:58 AM.
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Old 08-08-20, 03:16 PM
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Steve Hogg is a proponent of the axle a bit further back.. ie. you can read thru the below.
https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...leat-position/
Of course, a downside for especially us big-footed folks, is that the propensity for toe/wheel overlap is that much greater.
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Old 08-08-20, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by dirtydozen View Post
Over the internet I read a lot of times that cleats should be as far back as possible to minimize injuries and for instance big toe pain.
This is like saying that in order to "minimize injuries" one should better stay on the couch in front of a TV.

Moving cleats as far back as possible is something triathlon athletes sometimes do in order to reduce the workload on their calves (i.e. preserve calf muscles for the running stage). Now, if you are not running in a triathlon, then your cleats should be actually moved forward to make your calf muscles take part in the actual cycling effort. To "minimize injuries" remember to stretch and warm up your calves (and overall) before riding intensively.

Maybe moving cleats too far forward can contribute to big toe pain... but I doubt that. Big toe pain = wrong shoe size and, maybe, the nail needs some trimming...

Last edited by AndreyT; 08-08-20 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 08-09-20, 01:37 PM
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dirtydozen
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Originally Posted by AndreyT View Post

Maybe moving cleats too far forward can contribute to big toe pain... but I doubt that. Big toe pain = wrong shoe size and, maybe, the nail needs some trimming...
Well it seems like you can't really go wrong having cleats too backwards whereas you can get injuries with cleats being too forward, so i'd like to try to go backwards a bit more but I can't on my Mavic's.

Shoe size is good, I tried 3 different shoes that were fitting me very well + 1 that was a bit too big and with all of them I got the same exact big toe pain (intensity/at the same time in the ride)

On the bike it feels like there is too much body weight on the big toe, I think moving the cleat backwards will help in this regard
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