Climbing difficulties
11-30-20, 04:58 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by cycletheworld78
It just takes time, before you know it what was once hard will become easy
12-01-20, 02:00 AM
#27
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Why do people keep explaining how Zwift is not comparable to real life and if you want to learn to be a better climber you should climb in real life???
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
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12-01-20, 10:05 AM
#28
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When cycling the easiest way to climb is on a trike with a triple in front and low mountain bikes gears. You can go as slow as the steepest hill dictates. You can do this steep climb in a straight line, and stop and rest if necessary WITHOUT unclipping.
However, the real point here is to have the right gears available for the hills you climb.
However, the real point here is to have the right gears available for the hills you climb.
Last edited by rydabent; 12-25-20 at 12:26 PM.
12-01-20, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by rydabent
When cycling the easiest way to climb is on a trike with a triple in front and low mountain bikes gears. You can go as slow as the steepest hill dictates. You can do this steep climb in a straight line, and stop and rest if necessary WITHOUT unclipping.
I don’t think this helps OPs problem but one time in Zwift everyone was climbing in trikes. But this sadly isn’t a bike choice in game.
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12-01-20, 05:02 PM
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I have answers to those who wish to discuss Zwift and Zwift stats. If you are one of those folks who does not like new information and responds emotionally with disregulated hostility please feel free to scroll past.
spelger
What info do I think is 'off' in Zwift?
Answer to specifics: I do not think that data is altered from sensors. Ergo, HR, power and cadence info is not 'doctored.' It is as good as the sensors providing it. However, you ask a great question about how that data is manipulated. Zwift's entire business is predicated on recontextualizing data to provoke emotional responses in users. That's very different from, say, Strava (or more appropriately, TrainerRoad) where the data is presented in a more unbiased way.
What do I mean, specifically?
* People lying about weight
* Adjustability of game settings
* Zwift's poor basic physics engine
* Having massive performance gains as "part of the game" (e.g., you press a feather icon and presto, you have lost 25% of your weight for 60 seconds)
Some of those things are endemic to all indoor training (lying) - but some (the horrendous algebra behind their 'physics' engine; the perfomance enhancers) are specific to Zwift.
mr_pedro - when I can adjust gravity - during a ride - that's not only unrealistic, it tilts any playing field so that it is no longer level.
Note that I have not yet even touched on variances between trainers and trainer types.
The reality is that Zwift is a fun eSports game (if you can get it to work without crashing - not easy for many this week). But it is its own game - not a realistic cycling sim.
What that means for OP is that there are a couple of reasons you might be getting dropped on climbs.
1. Because you told the truth about your weight, and a lot of other riders have lied and cheated. BeCAusE bADgEs!
2. Because you are in worse shape than the other riders.
3. Because Zwift's in-game design doesn't do a good job of translating W/kg to actual climbing speed.
4. Because you are on a decent trainer, and a lot of other riders are on turbo trainers.
5. Your climbing skills are poor.
I know my W/kg on real-world climbs around where I live. I know what I need to put out to climb at a certain speed. And I know, generally, where I am in the pack. It's not replicated on Zwift. And not only that, Zwift does not resemble other online training software (I find this most-telling). Specifically, TrainerRoad and Rouvy both seemed far more accurate to me than Zwift.
Last bit on Zwift for this post: if you doubt that Zwift is an emotional / social product, all you need to do is look at how their user base discuss them. Heated defenses; demoralized hand-wringing when it doesn't work ... and so much more discussion of badges and mY tImE On ALpE d'zWIfT vs. discussion of data and FTP.
spelger
What info do I think is 'off' in Zwift?
Answer to specifics: I do not think that data is altered from sensors. Ergo, HR, power and cadence info is not 'doctored.' It is as good as the sensors providing it. However, you ask a great question about how that data is manipulated. Zwift's entire business is predicated on recontextualizing data to provoke emotional responses in users. That's very different from, say, Strava (or more appropriately, TrainerRoad) where the data is presented in a more unbiased way.
What do I mean, specifically?
* People lying about weight
* Adjustability of game settings
* Zwift's poor basic physics engine
* Having massive performance gains as "part of the game" (e.g., you press a feather icon and presto, you have lost 25% of your weight for 60 seconds)
Some of those things are endemic to all indoor training (lying) - but some (the horrendous algebra behind their 'physics' engine; the perfomance enhancers) are specific to Zwift.
mr_pedro - when I can adjust gravity - during a ride - that's not only unrealistic, it tilts any playing field so that it is no longer level.
Note that I have not yet even touched on variances between trainers and trainer types.
The reality is that Zwift is a fun eSports game (if you can get it to work without crashing - not easy for many this week). But it is its own game - not a realistic cycling sim.
What that means for OP is that there are a couple of reasons you might be getting dropped on climbs.
1. Because you told the truth about your weight, and a lot of other riders have lied and cheated. BeCAusE bADgEs!
2. Because you are in worse shape than the other riders.
3. Because Zwift's in-game design doesn't do a good job of translating W/kg to actual climbing speed.
4. Because you are on a decent trainer, and a lot of other riders are on turbo trainers.
5. Your climbing skills are poor.
I know my W/kg on real-world climbs around where I live. I know what I need to put out to climb at a certain speed. And I know, generally, where I am in the pack. It's not replicated on Zwift. And not only that, Zwift does not resemble other online training software (I find this most-telling). Specifically, TrainerRoad and Rouvy both seemed far more accurate to me than Zwift.
Last bit on Zwift for this post: if you doubt that Zwift is an emotional / social product, all you need to do is look at how their user base discuss them. Heated defenses; demoralized hand-wringing when it doesn't work ... and so much more discussion of badges and mY tImE On ALpE d'zWIfT vs. discussion of data and FTP.
Last edited by Danhedonia; 12-01-20 at 05:10 PM.
12-02-20, 01:03 AM
#31
Senior Member
The OP has not come back since the first post, but we are having enough fun without him...
mr_pedro - when I can adjust gravity - during a ride - that's not only unrealistic, it tilts any playing field so that it is no longer level.
[size=33px]
[/size]
Zwift is a game that pushes you to work hard on the bike, just like cycling in a group outside also pushes you to go faster. It is important to know what it is and isn’t, not to get disappointed with false expectations.
It would be nice if somehow it was a perfect simulation of reality, in the mean time I am happy if during a race I can settle into a group that pushes me to go harder.
I did recently switch from Zwift to Trainerroad. Might check Zwift out again at a later stage, for now I would like to focus on following a training plan.
Originally Posted by Danhedonia
mr_pedro - when I can adjust gravity - during a ride - that's not only unrealistic, it tilts any playing field so that it is no longer level.
[size=33px]
Zwift is a game that pushes you to work hard on the bike, just like cycling in a group outside also pushes you to go faster. It is important to know what it is and isn’t, not to get disappointed with false expectations.
It would be nice if somehow it was a perfect simulation of reality, in the mean time I am happy if during a race I can settle into a group that pushes me to go harder.
I did recently switch from Zwift to Trainerroad. Might check Zwift out again at a later stage, for now I would like to focus on following a training plan.
12-02-20, 02:08 AM
#32
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Originally Posted by mr_pedro
Zwift is a game that pushes you to work hard on the bike, just like cycling in a group outside also pushes you to go faster. It is important to know what it is and isn’t, not to get disappointed with false expectations.
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12-03-20, 01:30 AM
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Deciding "what's important is ..." means you are discussing your personal agenda. The OP asked questions about Zwift's accuracy. It is not accurate. Then, the dialogue was shifted to "does it motivate me, tho?"
This is actually typical of Zwift users. Most are ego-needy, and it drives them to be very competitive. Point out that their competition is unrealistic, and they become defensive and/or upset.
Hey, some people try hard to sell steak knives to get their name engraved on a plaque. Whatever gets you through the night.
However, I'm going to point out that in real life, you cannot eat a feather to drop 25% of your body weight.
This is actually typical of Zwift users. Most are ego-needy, and it drives them to be very competitive. Point out that their competition is unrealistic, and they become defensive and/or upset.
Hey, some people try hard to sell steak knives to get their name engraved on a plaque. Whatever gets you through the night.
However, I'm going to point out that in real life, you cannot eat a feather to drop 25% of your body weight.
12-03-20, 02:31 AM
#34
Senior Member
Archimedes already knew it, climbing isn't difficult at all:
Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world.
12-03-20, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Danhedonia
The OP asked questions about Zwift's accuracy.
As we used to say, “All models are wrong, but some are useful.” If you’re going to ride or race in Zwift you have to know or understand the differences between real life and the simulation as it relates to your riding. More important ‘unrealism’ than the ‘power-ups’, I feel, is how Zwift treats drafting, how certain bikes can draft and some cannot, and how the artificial ‘braking’ it applies downhill differs in races versus solo rides.
All cycling races, in virtual world or real world, are unrealistic because they’re all games with their own ‘unrealistic’ rules. But that something is unrealistic is not automatically material or significant to the competitors as along as all the rules are applied equally.
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12-04-20, 08:48 AM
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The question was implied in the penultimate paragraph of the post. I don't care to split hairs over semantics.
There is a disconnect between Zwift and real cycling - and it is leading to some curious results.
1. A new breed of very fit, extremely capable Zwift riders, who mistake their skill at riding in the game for cycling skill. Momentary digression: I have an in-law who is a sprinter on a UCI-Continental team. His brother is a triathlete, and engaged to my niece, who is a sponsored rider. I get to see data from pretty accomplished riders (Strava for all 3, and Zwift for the latter two). So have some baseline for looking at data.
A guy on the ****** Zwift sub - who has never ridden outside, ever - posted that he could hold 900 watts for .... 3 seconds, and wanted to know: should he be trying to become a sprinter on a pro team? The sub's answer: "yoU'Re sO rEaDY, bRO!" (I paraphrase). Hey - everyone has potential.
Further, almost all of the Zwift routes? events? Are short. Like under 2 hours. As I said: these folks are fit. But unless you wish to become a crit racer, eventually you will need to contemplate races that last longer than 40 minutes.
2. The physics engine is, simply, wrong. This could be an enormous and lengthy thread - I'll simply state that I'm never as slow as 5kph on a 6% climb, nor am I ever going to descend at 76 kph (actual #'s from a recent Zwift session). And as billridesbikes points out, the drafting and various other 'multipliers' are not based on attempts at simulation, but at making the game aspect 'stickier.'
Of course it's 'just a model.' The problem is that they sell this model as 'real,' and / or that so many inexperienced riders treat it as real. Why is that a problem? Why don't I just let them enjoy their fantasy? Mostly, I do. However, I think the real danger of Zwift is the insidious way they are breeding overconfidence in people who are going to be riding in traffic when the quarantine is over. Think people 'will be smart enough' to realize they need to rethink things once they go outside? I don't.
Please consider this part of my post (I know it's long, maybe too much for many). Also on ******, the other day, one of the more popular posts was a video a guy had posted of his 'awesome descent' near Mt. Baldy. If you don't know, it's outside LA and a very popular hiking destination. In fact, on his 'awesome descent,' he was going 35-45 mph past parked cars (both sides of road) on a narrow road, with people getting in and out of those cars. It was one of the most foolish, dangerous things I've seen documented and - naturally - celebrated.
I was critical, using timestamps of his video and etc. to point out how he was endangering himself and others, repeatedly, all in the span of four minutes. To his credit, he listened. What resonated with me was when I asked him why he did that, he said "I just wanted to go faster. Like Zwift."
Riding a bike on a road involves risking your life whenever traffic is near. That's a risk we can mitigate, and do, as experienced riders. I firmly believe Zwift is encouraging more than a few people to have poor riding habits. You may feel differently.
Edit: apparently the name of a popular online website (that rhymes with 'edit') is not allowed here.
There is a disconnect between Zwift and real cycling - and it is leading to some curious results.
1. A new breed of very fit, extremely capable Zwift riders, who mistake their skill at riding in the game for cycling skill. Momentary digression: I have an in-law who is a sprinter on a UCI-Continental team. His brother is a triathlete, and engaged to my niece, who is a sponsored rider. I get to see data from pretty accomplished riders (Strava for all 3, and Zwift for the latter two). So have some baseline for looking at data.
A guy on the ****** Zwift sub - who has never ridden outside, ever - posted that he could hold 900 watts for .... 3 seconds, and wanted to know: should he be trying to become a sprinter on a pro team? The sub's answer: "yoU'Re sO rEaDY, bRO!" (I paraphrase). Hey - everyone has potential.
Further, almost all of the Zwift routes? events? Are short. Like under 2 hours. As I said: these folks are fit. But unless you wish to become a crit racer, eventually you will need to contemplate races that last longer than 40 minutes.
2. The physics engine is, simply, wrong. This could be an enormous and lengthy thread - I'll simply state that I'm never as slow as 5kph on a 6% climb, nor am I ever going to descend at 76 kph (actual #'s from a recent Zwift session). And as billridesbikes points out, the drafting and various other 'multipliers' are not based on attempts at simulation, but at making the game aspect 'stickier.'
Of course it's 'just a model.' The problem is that they sell this model as 'real,' and / or that so many inexperienced riders treat it as real. Why is that a problem? Why don't I just let them enjoy their fantasy? Mostly, I do. However, I think the real danger of Zwift is the insidious way they are breeding overconfidence in people who are going to be riding in traffic when the quarantine is over. Think people 'will be smart enough' to realize they need to rethink things once they go outside? I don't.
Please consider this part of my post (I know it's long, maybe too much for many). Also on ******, the other day, one of the more popular posts was a video a guy had posted of his 'awesome descent' near Mt. Baldy. If you don't know, it's outside LA and a very popular hiking destination. In fact, on his 'awesome descent,' he was going 35-45 mph past parked cars (both sides of road) on a narrow road, with people getting in and out of those cars. It was one of the most foolish, dangerous things I've seen documented and - naturally - celebrated.
I was critical, using timestamps of his video and etc. to point out how he was endangering himself and others, repeatedly, all in the span of four minutes. To his credit, he listened. What resonated with me was when I asked him why he did that, he said "I just wanted to go faster. Like Zwift."
Riding a bike on a road involves risking your life whenever traffic is near. That's a risk we can mitigate, and do, as experienced riders. I firmly believe Zwift is encouraging more than a few people to have poor riding habits. You may feel differently.
Edit: apparently the name of a popular online website (that rhymes with 'edit') is not allowed here.
12-04-20, 01:35 PM
#37
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That's . . . . delusional. I know some 53 year old terminal Cat 3's who can do 900w for 3 seconds.
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12-04-20, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Danhedonia
The OP asked questions about Zwift's accuracy.
Originally Posted by billridesbikes
OP asked no such thing. OP asked how not to get dropped in Zwift.
Originally Posted by Danhedonia
The question was implied in the penultimate paragraph of the post. I don't care to split hairs over semantics.
Originally Posted by oik01
Any tips on how to fix this? Should I be pushing through to my limit during those climbs? If so how do you not get dropped right after? Should I be shifting up to higher gears/ dropping cadence to see if that helps keep power up? I want to stick to group C if I can because I can tell I will improve but it sucks to always just finish on flats at the back or finish half the race/ group ride if there's a climb. The moment you are dropped, its hopeless
12-04-20, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by caloso
That's . . . . delusional. I know some 53 year old terminal Cat 3's who can do 900w for 3 seconds.
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12-04-20, 07:26 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Thomas15
I am not someone you want to take training advice from but perhaps something here will be of use.
One thing that Zwift has done for me is introduce me to a power meter and the constant use of an HRM. Pay attention to the numbers and learn where you can perform short and long. Train at 90%, the so called sweet spot, for you OP it is 180 watts. Ok exactly 1 year ago I was 159 pounds, 5'6" with an ftp of 135. To say I sucked on the hills is an understatement. But alas I live in the hills so for the sake of convenience I decided to get at least a small amount of hill climbing skills.
So exactly 1 year ago almost to the day I started using Zwift. My first (free) ride was NYC the elevated streets that are made of glass. Made it 11 miles about 900 feet ascent, ran out of gas. In my mind I needed both cardo and climbing help so I picked an easy route, the volcano loop and did laps, I mean i really pushed myself. If you pay attention on the volcano loop there is on the left side a grounded shipwreck, you can see the mast about 30 seconds before you get there. Right after you pass the ship there is a hairpin to the right then a left turn to the cave. All if this is an uphill.
Do 5 laps on this circuit and every time you get to the shipwreck spool up and push push push until you get to the cave. Back off in the cave but repeat on lap 2-5. This is really crude interval training but really work yourself on this part of the circuit, try to set records in w/kg.
There are interval workouts in Zwift. You might consider something like the ftp booster, 6 week plan. You really have nothing to lose.
The main thing is to really push yourself on the hills. There are short but steep climbs, example Innsbruckring has the legsnapper, get on it go balls out. Do this often. I did a race there tonight, finished about mid pack but all of my gains were in the hills. I went from sucking on the hills to using them to make hay. The only place I can make any progress is in the climbs. That is not saying much actually but the flats have become my weak point by comparison .
One of the things I did early last winter was ride the mountain route at least twice a week then after a month started climbing the Alpe. In the year for me I have climbed to the radio tower 24 times and up the Alpe 41 times. I think that I have made a mistake in that doing those climbs has been the bulk of my training. True I have some big hills in my area and I did many climbs this summer IRL. Zwift helped me so much in my hill climbing outside but again I think it was a mistake for me not to use a Zwift training plan as I tend to use big gears and mash. I think I should be doing more spinning but I cannot argue that hills that were fantasy to me in 2019 were totally within my abilities in 2020.
I'm currently for what it's worth doing the build me up workout series. Too soon to tell if it will work but my cadence is for sure getting faster. Again 1 year ago I was 159 pounds today I'm 136, my ftp was 135 now is 195, I can do hilly 20 mile rides in Zwift average3.2 3.0w/kg which would have seemed impossible a year ago. Pain cave city! I can do IRL 28 mile loops with 3000 feet of climbing no problem now. My goal and I believe in setting goals is to to have an ftp of 225 by spring. If successful, this would actually put me really into B class. I'm not a racer I really don't care about it at all but I do like races just to see if I can improve my performance.
One thing that is very true about climbing, most that are not good at it hate it, those that are good at it love it. I have been on both sides of the fence and for me it all started with the desire and a positive attitude. Convince yourself that you like it and can be good at it. A negative attitude is not helpful at all. If you live in an area where riding outside isn't fun in winter now is a good time to use your trainer to improve your climbing skills. I went into last winter totally sucking on climbs, exited the winter not too bad. Trainer trainer trainer.
Again not advice just food for thought.
One thing that Zwift has done for me is introduce me to a power meter and the constant use of an HRM. Pay attention to the numbers and learn where you can perform short and long. Train at 90%, the so called sweet spot, for you OP it is 180 watts. Ok exactly 1 year ago I was 159 pounds, 5'6" with an ftp of 135. To say I sucked on the hills is an understatement. But alas I live in the hills so for the sake of convenience I decided to get at least a small amount of hill climbing skills.
So exactly 1 year ago almost to the day I started using Zwift. My first (free) ride was NYC the elevated streets that are made of glass. Made it 11 miles about 900 feet ascent, ran out of gas. In my mind I needed both cardo and climbing help so I picked an easy route, the volcano loop and did laps, I mean i really pushed myself. If you pay attention on the volcano loop there is on the left side a grounded shipwreck, you can see the mast about 30 seconds before you get there. Right after you pass the ship there is a hairpin to the right then a left turn to the cave. All if this is an uphill.
Do 5 laps on this circuit and every time you get to the shipwreck spool up and push push push until you get to the cave. Back off in the cave but repeat on lap 2-5. This is really crude interval training but really work yourself on this part of the circuit, try to set records in w/kg.
There are interval workouts in Zwift. You might consider something like the ftp booster, 6 week plan. You really have nothing to lose.
The main thing is to really push yourself on the hills. There are short but steep climbs, example Innsbruckring has the legsnapper, get on it go balls out. Do this often. I did a race there tonight, finished about mid pack but all of my gains were in the hills. I went from sucking on the hills to using them to make hay. The only place I can make any progress is in the climbs. That is not saying much actually but the flats have become my weak point by comparison .
One of the things I did early last winter was ride the mountain route at least twice a week then after a month started climbing the Alpe. In the year for me I have climbed to the radio tower 24 times and up the Alpe 41 times. I think that I have made a mistake in that doing those climbs has been the bulk of my training. True I have some big hills in my area and I did many climbs this summer IRL. Zwift helped me so much in my hill climbing outside but again I think it was a mistake for me not to use a Zwift training plan as I tend to use big gears and mash. I think I should be doing more spinning but I cannot argue that hills that were fantasy to me in 2019 were totally within my abilities in 2020.
I'm currently for what it's worth doing the build me up workout series. Too soon to tell if it will work but my cadence is for sure getting faster. Again 1 year ago I was 159 pounds today I'm 136, my ftp was 135 now is 195, I can do hilly 20 mile rides in Zwift average
One thing that is very true about climbing, most that are not good at it hate it, those that are good at it love it. I have been on both sides of the fence and for me it all started with the desire and a positive attitude. Convince yourself that you like it and can be good at it. A negative attitude is not helpful at all. If you live in an area where riding outside isn't fun in winter now is a good time to use your trainer to improve your climbing skills. I went into last winter totally sucking on climbs, exited the winter not too bad. Trainer trainer trainer.
Again not advice just food for thought.
12-04-20, 07:35 PM
#44
Full Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
The OP has not come back since the first post, but we are having enough fun without him...
Zwift is a game that pushes you to work hard on the bike, just like cycling in a group outside also pushes you to go faster. It is important to know what it is and isn’t, not to get disappointed with false expectations.
It would be nice if somehow it was a perfect simulation of reality, in the mean time I am happy if during a race I can settle into a group that pushes me to go harder.
I did recently switch from Zwift to Trainerroad. Might check Zwift out again at a later stage, for now I would like to focus on following a training plan.
Zwift is a game that pushes you to work hard on the bike, just like cycling in a group outside also pushes you to go faster. It is important to know what it is and isn’t, not to get disappointed with false expectations.
It would be nice if somehow it was a perfect simulation of reality, in the mean time I am happy if during a race I can settle into a group that pushes me to go harder.
I did recently switch from Zwift to Trainerroad. Might check Zwift out again at a later stage, for now I would like to focus on following a training plan.
12-04-20, 07:39 PM
#45
Full Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by atwl77
This puts you around 2.7W/kg. C group is a wide range from 2.5W/kg to 3.2W/kg, so you are at the lower end of that spectrum. You will be able to keep up with some, not so much with others.
You say you can "keep up" on the flat but you haven't mentioned how much power you are putting out to "keep up". If you are already at, or very close to threshold just following people on the flats, you will be dropped on the climbs at the same average power since you get less benefit of drafting on climbs. The key is to properly pace yourself and stick to a group that you can follow. Don't try to follow the groups at the front or near the front of the race at this point - these are people at the upper end of the C group and since Zwift racing is more about sustained power than anything else, you aren't going to be able to keep up.
As others have advised, keep training to improve your FTP, reduce your weight, or both.
You say you can "keep up" on the flat but you haven't mentioned how much power you are putting out to "keep up". If you are already at, or very close to threshold just following people on the flats, you will be dropped on the climbs at the same average power since you get less benefit of drafting on climbs. The key is to properly pace yourself and stick to a group that you can follow. Don't try to follow the groups at the front or near the front of the race at this point - these are people at the upper end of the C group and since Zwift racing is more about sustained power than anything else, you aren't going to be able to keep up.
As others have advised, keep training to improve your FTP, reduce your weight, or both.
12-04-20, 07:48 PM
#46
Full Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
Why do people keep explaining how Zwift is not comparable to real life and if you want to learn to be a better climber you should climb in real life???
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
Also I think I've replied to everyone before ... I guess my weakness isn't climbing per se but simply my ftp is very noncompetetive at this level... So the draft physics may let me hand around on the flat but my ftp will be exposed going uphill. So the simple solution is to improve my ftp.
Been doing hill repeats here in town ... It's interesting to see i hold pretty much the same watts as zwift in real life ( 230 today for around 9 minutes to get up the climb). Cadence is definitely lower though. Average gradient was 9.4 but the terminal portion had a segment with 14 percent for a bit that was a stinger.
12-04-20, 07:49 PM
#47
Full Member
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by mr_pedro
Why do people keep explaining how Zwift is not comparable to real life and if you want to learn to be a better climber you should climb in real life???
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
This is obvious, but it is also not the point. The OP question is how to stop being dropped on the climbs during a Zwift race. That is not asking how to become a better climber in real life. Zwift even has the option to ignore the climb and make the resistance level of the bike feel exactly the same as it would on a flat. If you don’t have a smart trainer, that is even the only option to you.
In Zwift the most important difference between a flat and a climb is that your speed goes down for the same power output and that there is less drag effect. The resistance also goes up if you have a smart trainer, but the standard setting is to simulate only half the grade and there is a setting to adjust this even further down.
OP writes that power before the climb is the same as power during the climb. This tells me that before the climb he is already being stretched above threshold and during the climb as everyone accelerates, he can only just keep pushing above his limit at the same pace as before the climb. But you can only pedal above your threshold for so much time and that is why he then drops off.
This is easily tested. If your FTP is around 200W, what is the average power in the first part of the race before you get dropped off? I bet it is a bit higher than 200W. For example 210W-220W you will only be able to maintain for 10 or 20 min.
So most likely you are not yet strong enough to keep up with the top of Cat C. That is not strange if you just moved up, the categories are quite wide and also people might cheat by adjusting their weight (both up or down), putting a large group of riders right at the top of the categorie W/kg limit.
Also I think I've replied to everyone before ... I guess my weakness isn't climbing per se but simply my ftp is very noncompetetive at this level... So the draft physics may let me hand around on the flat but my ftp will be exposed going uphill. So the simple solution is to improve my ftp.
Been doing hill repeats here in town ... It's interesting to see i hold pretty much the same watts as zwift in real life ( 230 today for around 9 minutes to get up the climb). Cadence is definitely lower though. Average gradient was 9.4 but the terminal portion had a segment with 14 percent for a bit that was a stinger.
Likes For oik01:
12-05-20, 12:08 AM
#48
Senior Member
Originally Posted by oik01
I think you are right about that ... I honestly never felt like it was time to move up ... It's not like I was dominating the D group or even near it ... I was just always part of the sprint finish and I'd won an occasional race which was fun.... I only moved up because of zwift power disqualification but I guess the first period after moving up I should expect to get dropped.
Also I think I've replied to everyone before ... I guess my weakness isn't climbing per se but simply my ftp is very noncompetetive at this level... So the draft physics may let me hand around on the flat but my ftp will be exposed going uphill. So the simple solution is to improve my ftp.
Been doing hill repeats here in town ... It's interesting to see i hold pretty much the same watts as zwift in real life ( 230 today for around 9 minutes to get up the climb). Cadence is definitely lower though. Average gradient was 9.4 but the terminal portion had a segment with 14 percent for a bit that was a stinger.
Also I think I've replied to everyone before ... I guess my weakness isn't climbing per se but simply my ftp is very noncompetetive at this level... So the draft physics may let me hand around on the flat but my ftp will be exposed going uphill. So the simple solution is to improve my ftp.
Been doing hill repeats here in town ... It's interesting to see i hold pretty much the same watts as zwift in real life ( 230 today for around 9 minutes to get up the climb). Cadence is definitely lower though. Average gradient was 9.4 but the terminal portion had a segment with 14 percent for a bit that was a stinger.
This is exactly how Zwift racing feels to me. I need to push above threshold to stay in the front group, then get dropped out of the main pack after 20/30 min and settle into a slower group pushing a little below my threshold until the finish. That is just the result of having a wide range of W/kg in the pack, whether it is equipment mis alignment, cheating or just stronger riders, in combination with the game engine that does not punish people enough for pushing hard at the front because of a reduced drag effect.
It is still fun to do, but the experience is really like a continuous all-out effort for the duration of the race. In real racing you can rest more in the pack and then have to push very hard at some points, I guess the game designers want to create an experience to push everyone hard all the time.
Have you looked at the training programs in Zwift? Sign up e.g for the “Build me up” program and it will take you through a series of structured workouts over a few months that for sure will raise your FTP.
12-05-20, 07:32 AM
#49
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mr_pedro has it correct - Zwift is basically "cycling as spin class." Everything is under an hour, and involves sustained maximum effort. Naturally it will have good power data if you're using a good data source. Like all of those programs, it's just a skin for what your trainer is tracking and reporting.
Why explain that it's not like reality? Well, why post about things on the internet at all? I find Rouvy to be much more realistic - but with a vastly reduced (and frankly more intimidating) user base. People don't screw around on there; maybe the lack of 'cartoonish' elements has created a 'more serious' environment?
I don't mind that Zwift has whimsical elements - but it would be nice if they made the game more realistic. Recent interviews with Eric Min don't give me hope - he definitely wants to compete with Peloton, and is focused on 'making the game stickier.'
Aside from the constant maximum effort required by Zwift's races, there's one other huge difference from the real world: bike handling. The Elite Sterzo tries to introduce steering but Zwift really doesn't require you to not-fall. Just keep churning the legs.
If Rouvy had more people and a little more humor, I think it'd be perfect. I especially like seeing the distribution of riders over a whole course. I'm in my first season of using these programs, but it has stood out to me as having a much more realistic erg dynamic / resistance / physics sim. I also love seeing the distribution of riders across the whole course - in my first several sessions I had two exciting chase-and-catches (once caught, once did the catching) and it was all about looking ahead, planning where you'd attack, etc.
Why explain that it's not like reality? Well, why post about things on the internet at all? I find Rouvy to be much more realistic - but with a vastly reduced (and frankly more intimidating) user base. People don't screw around on there; maybe the lack of 'cartoonish' elements has created a 'more serious' environment?
I don't mind that Zwift has whimsical elements - but it would be nice if they made the game more realistic. Recent interviews with Eric Min don't give me hope - he definitely wants to compete with Peloton, and is focused on 'making the game stickier.'
Aside from the constant maximum effort required by Zwift's races, there's one other huge difference from the real world: bike handling. The Elite Sterzo tries to introduce steering but Zwift really doesn't require you to not-fall. Just keep churning the legs.
If Rouvy had more people and a little more humor, I think it'd be perfect. I especially like seeing the distribution of riders over a whole course. I'm in my first season of using these programs, but it has stood out to me as having a much more realistic erg dynamic / resistance / physics sim. I also love seeing the distribution of riders across the whole course - in my first several sessions I had two exciting chase-and-catches (once caught, once did the catching) and it was all about looking ahead, planning where you'd attack, etc.
12-05-20, 08:31 AM
#50
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Try this training plan. It helped me improve my climbing greatly. It is 8 weeks, it is free, and you have to follow it to the letter for best results.
