The Need for Basic Bikes
03-27-21 | 11:12 AM
#126
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03-27-21 | 03:38 PM
#127
BMX Connoisseur
Joined: Jun 2016
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From: Canada
Bikes: 1988 Kuwahara Newport, 1983 Nishiki, 1984 Diamond Back Viper, 1991 Dyno Compe
A big fundamental problem here is people don't truly understand poverty. I collect and restore vintage bmx bikes and over the years I get modern ones that I like to donate to kids in need. When I see the kids a month or two later a) The bike is stripped of all the good parts b) The bike was "Stolen" aka sold. I made up my mind to not let this bother me and if the cash helps the kid it's all good.
You can make the best quality bike in the world but if is too cheap then it won't be cared for properly. It will be stolen, sold or what ever. It's the attitude of the people that makes the bike "Unreliable". When people have to work hard and the bike is not easily replaceable people start taking better care of it. Locking it up etc.
$200 Walmart bikes get trashed quickly from misuse and not always from wear and tear.
You can make the best quality bike in the world but if is too cheap then it won't be cared for properly. It will be stolen, sold or what ever. It's the attitude of the people that makes the bike "Unreliable". When people have to work hard and the bike is not easily replaceable people start taking better care of it. Locking it up etc.
$200 Walmart bikes get trashed quickly from misuse and not always from wear and tear.
03-27-21 | 03:52 PM
#128
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 269
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From: Woodbridge VA
Bikes: Trek Checkpoint; Cannondale Super X
Uhh, no. Actually no one here cares what you want to do with your time. But the whole point is to enable people to obtain decent, well-assembled bikes at Walmart-like prices. This would actually compete with Walmart. How would that enable Walmart to sell more?
I've owned a couple of Walmart bikes over the past couple decades. My observation is the ones I had were so poorly manufactured as to be maintenance proof.
I've owned a couple of Walmart bikes over the past couple decades. My observation is the ones I had were so poorly manufactured as to be maintenance proof.
03-27-21 | 04:46 PM
#130
Tragically Ignorant
Joined: Jun 2018
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From: New England
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
03-27-21 | 11:27 PM
#131
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
This is the hole you dig for yourself when you pretend someone said something other than what they actually said.
03-27-21 | 11:31 PM
#132
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2017
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
I collect and restore vintage bmx bikes and over the years I get modern ones that I like to donate to kids in need. When I see the kids a month or two later a) The bike is stripped of all the good parts b) The bike was "Stolen" aka sold. I made up my mind to not let this bother me and if the cash helps the kid it's all good.
You can make the best quality bike in the world but if is too cheap then it won't be cared for properly. It will be stolen, sold or what ever.
Theft is enough of an issue that a basic transport bike had better not be worth all that much, if it were it would be too valuable to use for no-indoor-parking commuting and utility.
$200 Walmart bikes get trashed quickly from misuse and not always from wear and tear.
03-27-21 | 11:58 PM
#133
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Joined: Jul 2015
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From: Chicago Suburbs
Bikes: GT Transeo & a half dozen ebike conversions.
I remember my Free Spirit as pretty basic, but not very nice bike. Steel rims for exanple and heavy. I got married in 75 and we bought two nice Euro 10 speeds for about $200 each, One was a Raleigh and the other a french make I cannot recall the name, The Sears bike was given away.
03-28-21 | 01:59 AM
#134
Not lost wanderer.
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 3,684
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From: Lancaster, Pa
Bikes: Cambodia bike,2012 Fuji Stratos...
I get bikes here in Cambodia that came from Japan in a container, they are anywhere from $40 to $60 and probably would be one of the best bikes that LBS should provide.
Here is one of them.
1x7 speed and it just works. Cheap build but it works
Here is one like above I stripped and made into a coaster brake only bike.
Besides most people do not understand the idea of the front shifter therefore the 80s mt bike is not optimum, make it a 1x and get rid of the triple chainring would be simpler and easier to work on.
Here is one of them.
1x7 speed and it just works. Cheap build but it works
Here is one like above I stripped and made into a coaster brake only bike.
Besides most people do not understand the idea of the front shifter therefore the 80s mt bike is not optimum, make it a 1x and get rid of the triple chainring would be simpler and easier to work on.
Last edited by bwilli88; 03-28-21 at 02:03 AM.
03-28-21 | 05:14 AM
#135
Tragically Ignorant
Joined: Jun 2018
Posts: 15,593
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From: New England
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
I remember my Free Spirit as pretty basic, but not very nice bike. Steel rims for exanple and heavy. I got married in 75 and we bought two nice Euro 10 speeds for about $200 each, One was a Raleigh and the other a french make I cannot recall the name, The Sears bike was given away.
Just for perspective, realize that $200 in 1975 is about $978 in 2021 money.
03-28-21 | 04:53 PM
#136
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2019
Posts: 59
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From: Hawaii
Bikes: Litespeed Adecco, Specialized Roubaix SL4
I read the post a little differently. It seems to me that the underlying issue is how you build a bike transport culture as opposed to a bike enthusiast culture. That would require cheap but sturdy standardized bikes with interchangeable parts and maybe a 3-5 speed rear derailleur. The problem is that biking in a lot of major cities is dangerous given the roads, speeds and the lack of designated bike lanes. To build a bike transport would require rebuilding the urban infrastructure to make biking safer.
03-28-21 | 06:38 PM
#137
Thread Starter
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Joined: May 2017
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
I read the post a little differently. It seems to me that the underlying issue is how you build a bike transport culture as opposed to a bike enthusiast culture. That would require cheap but sturdy standardized bikes with interchangeable parts and maybe a 3-5 speed rear derailleur.
The problem is that biking in a lot of major cities is dangerous given the roads, speeds and the lack of designated bike lanes. To build a bike transport would require rebuilding the urban infrastructure to make biking safer.
- Because they enjoy it
- Because they believe strongly in minimizing the use of motor vehicles
- Because their financial situation gives them no alternative
Not that what works there couldn't also be appealing to those who could afford (and may in fact own) a better bike for enjoyment rides, but would prefer to only risk a budget bike where having to lock up outside, winter road salt, etc aspects of commute/utility cycling are concerned.
03-29-21 | 04:06 AM
#138
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Yes
That is indeed a problem - but despite it, there are already people using bikes for transport
Not that what works there couldn't also be appealing to those who could afford (and may in fact own) a better bike for enjoyment rides, but would prefer to only risk a budget bike where having to lock up outside, winter road salt, etc aspects of commute/utility cycling are concerned.
That is indeed a problem - but despite it, there are already people using bikes for transport
- Because they enjoy it
- Because they believe strongly in minimizing the use of motor vehicles
- Because their financial situation gives them no alternative
Not that what works there couldn't also be appealing to those who could afford (and may in fact own) a better bike for enjoyment rides, but would prefer to only risk a budget bike where having to lock up outside, winter road salt, etc aspects of commute/utility cycling are concerned.
03-29-21 | 04:33 AM
#139
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Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Houston, TX
Bikes: 2017 Co-op ADV 1.1; ~1991 Novara Arriba; 1990 Fuji Palisade; mid-90's Moots Tandem; 1985 Performance Superbe
Sladda Fate; Priority?
https://medium.com/@helikes.it/updat...-0-42d413ff925
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-sladda-bikes
I have zero experience with either one, but they are real attempts to scratch this itch.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-sladda-bikes
I have zero experience with either one, but they are real attempts to scratch this itch.
Last edited by flangehead; 03-29-21 at 04:36 AM. Reason: Fix links.
03-29-21 | 08:57 AM
#140
Senior Member
Joined: Jun 2015
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From: North Central Wisconsin
Solution: It's called the old bicycle. There are millions of them out there and they fit the bill of cheap, reliable, easily maintained transportation. They can often be had for less that $100 (plenty of personal experience there) and are often a few consumable parts away from being just as good or better than new. Most nine-year-olds can be taught to replace a tire or a chain. Here is a good example. This type of bicycle is the most produced vehicle of any kind ever, and it does exactly what it was designed to do.
Other excellent options include the tons and tons of English three speeds sitting unused across the country, Chicago Schwinns, Free Spirits, etc.
We don't need new bikes. We need to use the ones we already made.
Other excellent options include the tons and tons of English three speeds sitting unused across the country, Chicago Schwinns, Free Spirits, etc.
We don't need new bikes. We need to use the ones we already made.
03-29-21 | 09:33 AM
#141
Thread Starter
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
03-29-21 | 09:48 AM
#143
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,909
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From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...s-sladda-bikes
I have zero experience with either one, but they are real attempts to scratch this itch.
I have zero experience with either one, but they are real attempts to scratch this itch.
And then there's what actually killed it, which was doing something quirky. Belt drives are not of course unknown, and seem viable in concept and other's execution, but whatever they went with broke too many times and lead to a recalling all the bikes and abandoning the idea.
One of the lessons there is probably "be boringly ordinary" - any contemplated "innovation" needs to have a fallback alternative of long proven, widely understood technology. Also, pilot before going large. And then beware of component substitutions, since part of going large is finding the cheapest suitable volume source for each part, rather than the off-the-shelf ones likely used in a pilot.
(Ikea also tends to locate their huge stores in areas that are very time consuming to get to without a car...)
Last edited by UniChris; 03-29-21 at 10:05 AM.
03-29-21 | 11:50 AM
#146
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Joined: Jul 2018
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Likes: 2
Bike Inequality?
If you take some time to read the article you get with the inevitable dribble like - "it's time for the activists to up their game and end this horrible oppression" - like somebody got up this morning and planned to place somebody else at a disadvantage? I live in the Connecticut RIver Valley as it runs between NH and VT and within a 30 minute drive I can go to five agencies and co-ops that will give anybody a refurbished bike for free. So the question of a gap that just HAS to be closed is rubbish. The author runs a bike-coop and guess what he wants funding for...? Decent bikes are available to most who want one. As a retired mechanic I spend all winter working on a new batch of used bikes and sell them all for the price of the parts come Spring.
Could always try to get a bike the old fashioned way? Save your money and buy one.
Could always try to get a bike the old fashioned way? Save your money and buy one.
03-29-21 | 11:52 AM
#147
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 90
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From: THE belly-button of Ohio
Bikes: Surly Cross, Franklin tandem, Culprit Jr., BMX racer
How much did a bike cost in 1920? Probably a worker's monthly wages or more and that was a heavy single speed bike. For a monthly wage, even at minimum wage, you can buy a decent commuter bike nowadays.
People say they want a simple bike, then buy the colorful full suspension bike at Walmart. Walmart sells exactly what people actually buy. If people buy a decent rigid commuter bike for $500, Walmart would sell it. But people only talk about buying a decent bike, then end up with the cheap one.
The terrible truth is, to buy a decent bike people would have to give up smoking, drinking, drugs and Starbucks. And that actually tells us people's priorities.
It is not different with cars. Many years ago I worked at Starbucks. People came every day to buy a $5 coffee. But didn't have money to fix their driver side mirror that had fallen off. 1 month brewing coffee at home would have paid for a life saving safety feature. Priorities....
People say they want a simple bike, then buy the colorful full suspension bike at Walmart. Walmart sells exactly what people actually buy. If people buy a decent rigid commuter bike for $500, Walmart would sell it. But people only talk about buying a decent bike, then end up with the cheap one.
The terrible truth is, to buy a decent bike people would have to give up smoking, drinking, drugs and Starbucks. And that actually tells us people's priorities.
It is not different with cars. Many years ago I worked at Starbucks. People came every day to buy a $5 coffee. But didn't have money to fix their driver side mirror that had fallen off. 1 month brewing coffee at home would have paid for a life saving safety feature. Priorities....
03-29-21 | 11:55 AM
#148
Still learning
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 11,529
Likes: 87
From: North of Canada, Adirondacks
Bikes: Still a garage full
NFPs and Locally Built
You can't send those without transportation to a big box store, because they don't have transportation.
Not for profits fulfill the roll of refurbishing bikes and teaching people about bikes in Detroit and other cities. They must give away the department store bikes after they teach young people. But of course the Hub hasn't been open since Covid struck except for a garage sale this weekend. I assume a few still get paychecks and insurance, but don't need to work. Additionally, I don't understand the prices for the refurb and sell model. I am baffled that they charge $300 and up for a 3 speed, and everything else is more, often more than 50% I charge for a well worn refurbished bike. Then there is the Madison WI NFP that asks $1000 for a steel TREK MTB on ebay. Go figure, cause I can't.
https://thehubofdetroit.org/back-alley-bikes/
I prefer this concept more and always find 5-6 bikes for them annually.
https://fb4kdetroit.org
As far as local manufacturing, see below.
Locally built - moderate pricing
https://detroitbikes.com
Locally built - not so moderate pricing
https://detroitbikes.com
GM just abandoned it's electric bike venture after only a year in this mobility space.
Not for profits fulfill the roll of refurbishing bikes and teaching people about bikes in Detroit and other cities. They must give away the department store bikes after they teach young people. But of course the Hub hasn't been open since Covid struck except for a garage sale this weekend. I assume a few still get paychecks and insurance, but don't need to work. Additionally, I don't understand the prices for the refurb and sell model. I am baffled that they charge $300 and up for a 3 speed, and everything else is more, often more than 50% I charge for a well worn refurbished bike. Then there is the Madison WI NFP that asks $1000 for a steel TREK MTB on ebay. Go figure, cause I can't.
https://thehubofdetroit.org/back-alley-bikes/
I prefer this concept more and always find 5-6 bikes for them annually.
https://fb4kdetroit.org
As far as local manufacturing, see below.
Locally built - moderate pricing
https://detroitbikes.com
Locally built - not so moderate pricing
https://detroitbikes.com
GM just abandoned it's electric bike venture after only a year in this mobility space.
03-29-21 | 11:59 AM
#149
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: May 2017
Posts: 1,909
Likes: 394
From: Northampton, MA
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
I live in the Connecticut RIver Valley as it runs between NH and VT and within a 30 minute drive I can go to five agencies and co-ops that will give anybody a refurbished bike for free.
So the question of a gap that just HAS to be closed is rubbish. The author runs a bike-coop and guess what he wants funding for...?
Could always try to get a bike the old fashioned way? Save your money and buy one.
There's a huge gap between having the funds available to do something but deciding you can't afford to, to not having the funds and having no way to do it, to not having the funds and going ahead and doing it with ready consumer credit - I suspect we're getting to the point where many individuals live their whole lives in one of those categories with little more than a dim awareness that the other categories even exist.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-29-21 at 04:56 PM.
03-29-21 | 12:53 PM
#150
Newbie
Joined: Sep 2012
Posts: 20
Likes: 2
From: San Antonio, Texas
Bikes: 83 Centurion LeMans, 84 Trek 500, 84 Centurion Turbo, 86 Centurion Ironman
Streetsblog surprised me today by having an article which highlights a real issue without bending it all out of shape: How the ‘Budget-Bike Trap’ Creates Inequality
To some extent, this is a rant against department store bike-shaped-objects, but it's also a recognition of the lack of affordable alternatives, and as such, it's food for thought.
There should exist a budget bike built for utility, not bogus marketing features. No shocks, perhaps not single speed but maybe only a rear derailleur. Probably rim brakes for simplicity and easy of maintenance. Standard size interchangeable components. It probably already even exists in the developing world, it's just not what is imagined to appeal to, and shipped for sale to, throwaway culture consumers.
And the big box stores should carry it. It might not look fancy on the floor, but word would get around that it was a good choice - maybe not for the child gift market, but at least for the adult utility one.
Assembly should be local - sure, import containers of components, but putting them together in an organized fashion locally would make sense, and from pallets of like parts, not individually boxed "kits" mis-assembled by someone isolated in the back room of the store for a few bucks per "bike" as these stores currently do. Think what the bike coops do, but feed them with sound components rather than be rescuing basket cases. Would make a good jobs program.
There should be a camp where you build your own - there's a huge market for both adult "experiences" and summer programs to fill kids time, and nothing creates self-reliant ownership like knowing how all the parts went together. And while the prebuild has machine assembled wheels, for the camp on day one you're handed the front rim, hub and spokes and walk through lacing it as group, day two you do the dished rear...
To some extent, this is a rant against department store bike-shaped-objects, but it's also a recognition of the lack of affordable alternatives, and as such, it's food for thought.
There should exist a budget bike built for utility, not bogus marketing features. No shocks, perhaps not single speed but maybe only a rear derailleur. Probably rim brakes for simplicity and easy of maintenance. Standard size interchangeable components. It probably already even exists in the developing world, it's just not what is imagined to appeal to, and shipped for sale to, throwaway culture consumers.
And the big box stores should carry it. It might not look fancy on the floor, but word would get around that it was a good choice - maybe not for the child gift market, but at least for the adult utility one.
Assembly should be local - sure, import containers of components, but putting them together in an organized fashion locally would make sense, and from pallets of like parts, not individually boxed "kits" mis-assembled by someone isolated in the back room of the store for a few bucks per "bike" as these stores currently do. Think what the bike coops do, but feed them with sound components rather than be rescuing basket cases. Would make a good jobs program.
There should be a camp where you build your own - there's a huge market for both adult "experiences" and summer programs to fill kids time, and nothing creates self-reliant ownership like knowing how all the parts went together. And while the prebuild has machine assembled wheels, for the camp on day one you're handed the front rim, hub and spokes and walk through lacing it as group, day two you do the dished rear...