Mash or Spin?
#1
Not lost wanderer.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Kampong Cham, Cambodia but I have quite a few in Lancaster, PA
Posts: 3,156
Bikes: In USA; 73 Raleigh Super Course dingle speed, 72 Raleigh Gran Sport SS, 72 Geoffry Butler, 81 Centurion Pro-Tour, 74 Gugie Grandier Sportier
Mentioned: 70 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 826 Post(s)
Liked 799 Times
in
432 Posts
Mash or Spin?
When riding along and you find the going is too easy or maybe a bit hard. Do you shift up or stay in the easier gear or down to a bit harder and mash?
#2
Senior Member
Situation dependent - if it looks like a short rise or just a wind guys, I just grind harder. Looks like a hill or I've turned into a headwind, go down a gear or two.
In general, I've had a bad habit of grinding at low RPM and over the years have worked to increase RPM so I try to err on the side of downshifting.
I just did a very flat century ride on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay here in Maryland, where at the start there were 24 mph sustained winds out of the WNW. There were 8 mile stretches right into the wind where I geared down, there were long stretches of quartering or side winds where I just ramped up the pedal pressure.
But, the last 18 miles were mostly directly to the WNW and I was shedding gears left and right!
In general, I've had a bad habit of grinding at low RPM and over the years have worked to increase RPM so I try to err on the side of downshifting.
I just did a very flat century ride on the eastern shore of the Chesapeake Bay here in Maryland, where at the start there were 24 mph sustained winds out of the WNW. There were 8 mile stretches right into the wind where I geared down, there were long stretches of quartering or side winds where I just ramped up the pedal pressure.
But, the last 18 miles were mostly directly to the WNW and I was shedding gears left and right!
Likes For jpescatore:
#3
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
My default is to mash a high gear, and spin a lower one for hills and headwinds. I do tend to use a higher gear than most for hills, and do a lot of standing.
Lots of threads about this--people need to use whatever works best for them and ignore people who try to prescribe the superior method based on what works for them. Legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard issue, so different styles suit different people.
And there really is no evidence other than anecdote (not scientific) that mashing is bad for the knees, but expect a bunch of posts that will state that as fact. It appears to be an article of faith amongst trainers, but I've never had anyone successfully produce a study of any kind that indicates that this is so.
Lots of threads about this--people need to use whatever works best for them and ignore people who try to prescribe the superior method based on what works for them. Legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard issue, so different styles suit different people.
And there really is no evidence other than anecdote (not scientific) that mashing is bad for the knees, but expect a bunch of posts that will state that as fact. It appears to be an article of faith amongst trainers, but I've never had anyone successfully produce a study of any kind that indicates that this is so.
#4
Full Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Thailand
Posts: 239
Bikes: Bianchi Infinito CV, Trek X- CAL 29er HT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times
in
44 Posts
I have come to the conclusion RPM is a personal preference. What works for me may or may not work for you. I have always been a spinner, and never mash gears- take care.
Likes For Jumpski:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 1,780
Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 698 Post(s)
Liked 1,598 Times
in
790 Posts
When I run out of climbing gears and become fatigued, I become more of a masher. That is just the end result of pushing myself.
Is that a bad thing?
Is that a bad thing?
#6
Dead but dreaming
Join Date: Oct 2020
Location: Bay Area, CA (East Bay - Contra Costa County)
Posts: 368
Bikes: 2020 Santa Cruz Stigmata, 2022 Cannondale Synapse
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 142 Post(s)
Liked 272 Times
in
158 Posts
In general if I'm at a short rise I may stand and hammer it out until it levels out again, but any sustained upward or headwind situation will have me shift down to keep my cadence up. My goal is usually to maintain 80 - 90 on my cadence.
Last edited by KJ43; 05-05-21 at 07:36 AM.
Likes For KJ43:
#7
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2005
Location: northWET washington
Posts: 1,191
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 380 Post(s)
Liked 670 Times
in
391 Posts
My default is to mash a high gear, and spin a lower one for hills and headwinds. I do tend to use a higher gear than most for hills, and do a lot of standing.
Lots of threads about this--people need to use whatever works best for them and ignore people who try to prescribe the superior method based on what works for them. Legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard issue, so different styles suit different people.
And there really is no evidence other than anecdote (not scientific) that mashing is bad for the knees, but expect a bunch of posts that will state that as fact. It appears to be an article of faith amongst trainers, but I've never had anyone successfully produce a study of any kind that indicates that this is so.
Lots of threads about this--people need to use whatever works best for them and ignore people who try to prescribe the superior method based on what works for them. Legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard issue, so different styles suit different people.
And there really is no evidence other than anecdote (not scientific) that mashing is bad for the knees, but expect a bunch of posts that will state that as fact. It appears to be an article of faith amongst trainers, but I've never had anyone successfully produce a study of any kind that indicates that this is so.

Likes For kahn:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,087
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,Klein Quantum II
Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2099 Post(s)
Liked 3,191 Times
in
1,280 Posts
And there really is no evidence other than anecdote (not scientific) that mashing is bad for the knees, but expect a bunch of posts that will state that as fact. It appears to be an article of faith amongst trainers, but I've never had anyone successfully produce a study of any kind that indicates that this is so.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
Likes For jamesdak:
#10
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1548 Post(s)
Liked 939 Times
in
503 Posts
I do a lot of fixed gear riding, so both spin and mash! But I prefer a somewhat moderate gear ratio (68 gear inches) because I value the health of my knees. Mashing is much harder on them than spinning... no matter what someone who posts more often than almost everyone else says.

Likes For AlmostTrick:
#11
more daylight today!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 12,490
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 43 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5116 Post(s)
Liked 3,610 Times
in
2,507 Posts
There is a time to mash and a time to spin.
If you mash all the time, you are probably losing performance somewhere.
If you spin all the time, you are probably losing performance somewhere.
Though anecdotally, when young, I mashed. I could pull off from a dead stop in a very high gear ratio and accelerated quick and keep going. As a much older person, I can't begin to even think about doing that. But I can spin and climb the short hills here as well as most. At least better than the young noobs that try to climb in their small cogs at a 30 cadence.
If you mash all the time, you are probably losing performance somewhere.
If you spin all the time, you are probably losing performance somewhere.
Though anecdotally, when young, I mashed. I could pull off from a dead stop in a very high gear ratio and accelerated quick and keep going. As a much older person, I can't begin to even think about doing that. But I can spin and climb the short hills here as well as most. At least better than the young noobs that try to climb in their small cogs at a 30 cadence.
#12
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 15,298
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 120 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9638 Post(s)
Liked 6,023 Times
in
3,465 Posts

Likes For mstateglfr:
#13
Fxxxxr
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: falfurrias texas
Posts: 954
Bikes: wabi classic (stolen & recovered)
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2640 Post(s)
Liked 1,121 Times
in
849 Posts

__________________
Nothing is true---everything is permitted
Nothing is true---everything is permitted
Likes For jack pot:
#14
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
Talk to those 70 year olds still riding. And, of course, I will throw anecdotal "evidence" that human tissue: ligaments, tendons, muscle, cartilage and bone only have so much life to them. Same hip replaced twice (no accidents or specific trauma) and lots of friends "running" with new knees and even a few ankles. Yes, legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard but many have a "use by date!" 

That's true, joints wear, but that's not the question. The question is whether mashing wears the knee more than spinning. I don't know what your hip has to do with that, and obviously running is harder on the knees than biking.
I think people do a lot more damage to their knees walking around with a lot of extra weight than they do adding a little resistance to their pedal stroke,
I've been a masher all my life, and I'm 60. My knees are fine Another anecdote.
#15
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
Well I'll be that guy, LOL! I have bad knees but can ride no problems. By bad knees I mean lot and lots of meniscus damage with replacements coming in the next couple of years. I normally spin but am a masher for mountain climbs. As my knees have gotten worse I've had to stay completely out of the mountains. I can still ride my usually 25+ daily rides as long as I don't mash. If I do my knees will swell and become so painful I can't hardly walk. So yeah, put me in the camp of mashing is bad for you. I'd bet even if you do "get away with it" and feel no effects currently it will effect you as you age. Just my two cents....
I don't doubt that once your knee is injured, then mashing will be harder than if it is not. But notice that your anecdote says you developed these knee problems while you were primarily a spinner.
What it comes down to is a certain percentage of people will screw their knees up regardless of whether they ride or not, and also regardless of spin vs. mash. These threads always end up with people telling me that even though they got some sort of joint problems without significant mashing habits, that somehow indicates that mashing is bad for you, and that they know someone who mashed and their knee went bad. We all know plenty of people with bad knees as we get older, but did you ever notice how many of them DIDN'T mash high gears?
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,087
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,Klein Quantum II
Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2099 Post(s)
Liked 3,191 Times
in
1,280 Posts
I don't doubt that once your knee is injured, then mashing will be harder than if it is not. But notice that your anecdote says you developed these knee problems while you were primarily a spinner.
What it comes down to is a certain percentage of people will screw their knees up regardless of whether they ride or not, and also regardless of spin vs. mash. These threads always end up with people telling me that even though they got some sort of joint problems without significant mashing habits, that somehow indicates that mashing is bad for you, and that they know someone who mashed and their knee went bad. We all know plenty of people with bad knees as we get older, but did you ever notice how many of them DIDN'T mash high gears?
What it comes down to is a certain percentage of people will screw their knees up regardless of whether they ride or not, and also regardless of spin vs. mash. These threads always end up with people telling me that even though they got some sort of joint problems without significant mashing habits, that somehow indicates that mashing is bad for you, and that they know someone who mashed and their knee went bad. We all know plenty of people with bad knees as we get older, but did you ever notice how many of them DIDN'T mash high gears?

I do know that my physician, knee surgeon (he's operated on my 5 times) and physical therapist are all cyclist and all have advised me to spin easy and avoid the stress of mashing. That carries more weight with me than my on opinion. The surgeon has mentioned studies on this but who knows?
Oh, and you've actually mentioned something interesting. If you agree that mashing on bad knees can now be problematic isn't that admitting that the stresses of mashing are more than spinning and thus detrimental? Common sense being applied here of course...
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
#17
Junior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have a really hard time spinning, even though I know it's more efficient. I usually end up around 80 rpms unless I am really trying to spin.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: reno, nv
Posts: 1,814
Bikes: yes, i have one
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 885 Post(s)
Liked 935 Times
in
538 Posts
Funny this thread pops up at this time. while out yesterday i decided to ride up a familiar hill but i wanted to use my small chain ring on my triple just to see how it would go. normally i am in the middle ring and usually on the largest or next down cog in back when spinning then go down two or three cogs to mash for a bit. the small ring was such a werid feeling that i could not do it for very long. i had to go back to the middle ring.
i like to mash when i get a bit tired. and when we say mash i assume we also mean standing, or do i have that wrong? regardless, i like to switch it up when the grade is steep just to give some muscle a bit of a rest.
i like to mash when i get a bit tired. and when we say mash i assume we also mean standing, or do i have that wrong? regardless, i like to switch it up when the grade is steep just to give some muscle a bit of a rest.
Likes For spelger:
#19
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1548 Post(s)
Liked 939 Times
in
503 Posts
Negative, lol! I've always been a masher up hills and mountains. i also grew up a masher on my single speed bike. I progressed into being a spinner about 10 years ago as the knee problems kicked in. But honestly you have your opinion, I have mine and in the grand scheme neither matters. 
I do know that my physician, knee surgeon (he's operated on my 5 times) and physical therapist are all cyclist and all have advised me to spin easy and avoid the stress of mashing. That carries more weight with me than my on opinion. The surgeon has mentioned studies on this but who knows?
Oh, and you've actually mentioned something interesting. If you agree that mashing on bad knees can now be problematic isn't that admitting that the stresses of mashing are more than spinning and thus detrimental? Common sense being applied here of course...

I do know that my physician, knee surgeon (he's operated on my 5 times) and physical therapist are all cyclist and all have advised me to spin easy and avoid the stress of mashing. That carries more weight with me than my on opinion. The surgeon has mentioned studies on this but who knows?
Oh, and you've actually mentioned something interesting. If you agree that mashing on bad knees can now be problematic isn't that admitting that the stresses of mashing are more than spinning and thus detrimental? Common sense being applied here of course...

#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,087
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super(2)Lemond Maillot Juane (2) & custom,PDG Paramount,Serotta CSI,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Prologue TT,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,Klein Quantum II
Mentioned: 143 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2099 Post(s)
Liked 3,191 Times
in
1,280 Posts
Well daggum it, I need to get that post count up, LOL!
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
#21
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 13,720
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Mentioned: 39 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7754 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,277 Posts
Generally, I'm a spinner. 94-104 rpm, and I find myself shifting constantly to keep in that zone, except climbing anything over maybe 3-4% of any length. I found that even if I have gears that will allow me to spin at my usual cadence at the same speed, my legs seem to want to run in the 80-90 rpm range.
Recently, I've acquired/restored a couple vintage bikes, with 8, 7, and most recently only 6 gears at the back, as well as downtube shifters. Less convenient for constant shifting, plus larger gaps between the gears and not as wide a range, so I have to expand my comfort zone.
Recently, I've acquired/restored a couple vintage bikes, with 8, 7, and most recently only 6 gears at the back, as well as downtube shifters. Less convenient for constant shifting, plus larger gaps between the gears and not as wide a range, so I have to expand my comfort zone.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#22
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
Negative, lol! I've always been a masher up hills and mountains. i also grew up a masher on my single speed bike. I progressed into being a spinner about 10 years ago as the knee problems kicked in. But honestly you have your opinion, I have mine and in the grand scheme neither matters. 
I do know that my physician, knee surgeon (he's operated on my 5 times) and physical therapist are all cyclist and all have advised me to spin easy and avoid the stress of mashing. That carries more weight with me than my on opinion. The surgeon has mentioned studies on this but who knows?
Oh, and you've actually mentioned something interesting. If you agree that mashing on bad knees can now be problematic isn't that admitting that the stresses of mashing are more than spinning and thus detrimental? Common sense being applied here of course...

I do know that my physician, knee surgeon (he's operated on my 5 times) and physical therapist are all cyclist and all have advised me to spin easy and avoid the stress of mashing. That carries more weight with me than my on opinion. The surgeon has mentioned studies on this but who knows?
Oh, and you've actually mentioned something interesting. If you agree that mashing on bad knees can now be problematic isn't that admitting that the stresses of mashing are more than spinning and thus detrimental? Common sense being applied here of course...
We actually had a guy posting here a couple years ago who said his arthritic knees could handle mashing but not spinning, so I think it depends on the injury, btw.
#23
Knurled Nut
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 14,869
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7835 Post(s)
Liked 8,376 Times
in
4,679 Posts
Trust me, there's really good reasons I put that guy on ignore. I can only put up with so much aggressive condescending BS. Look at the guy jump on me for no reason right there, for example. I wouldn't have known about it if you hadn't quoted him.
I'm quite sure you know best what does and doesn't work for your knees, by the way. I just think there's too many people who don't give mashers the same credit.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,805
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3234 Post(s)
Liked 998 Times
in
599 Posts
Talk to those 70 year olds still riding. And, of course, I will throw anecdotal "evidence" that human tissue: ligaments, tendons, muscle, cartilage and bone only have so much life to them. Same hip replaced twice (no accidents or specific trauma) and lots of friends "running" with new knees and even a few ankles. Yes, legs and cardiovascular systems are not standard but many have a "use by date!" 

#25
Newbie racer
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 3,375
Bikes: Propel, red is faster
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1566 Post(s)
Liked 1,537 Times
in
956 Posts
Custom cadence for a custom individual! I'd say there's perhaps a realm of reasonableness on either end between zero and 200. That reasonableness is based on your knees, your available gears, and whatever you need to do with the bike during that next 100 yards you plan to traverse.
That's all I've got on this one.
That's all I've got on this one.
Likes For burnthesheep: