Thinking of clipping in.
06-29-23 | 11:29 AM
#76
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06-29-23 | 01:18 PM
#77
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While I do use clipless pedals on my road bikes. I don’t have any illusions about generating any power on the upstroke.
https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique
“Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke. So what hope is there for the rest of us?”
https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique
“Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke. So what hope is there for the rest of us?”
06-29-23 | 02:04 PM
#78
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
While I do use clipless pedals on my road bikes. I don’t have any illusions about generating any power on the upstroke.
https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique
“Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke. So what hope is there for the rest of us?”
https://www.cyclefit.co.uk/journal/c...ling-technique
“Dr Jeff Broker has done extensive pedalling kinesiology tests on 100 elite and professional cyclists over 10 years and his data shows that not one of them produces a meaningful upstroke. So what hope is there for the rest of us?”
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
- More efficient power transfer and smoother pedalling technique
- Secure foot placement on the pedal which stops your foot sliding off
- Better for climbing up hills where you can take advantage of an upward pedal stroke
Last edited by big john; 06-29-23 at 02:09 PM.
06-29-23 | 02:13 PM
#79
Tragically Ignorant
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From: New England
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
The issue is that it comes at the cost of reduced net efficiency. Looks like it is best for short fast climb and sprints, but bad for endurance. That about right?
06-29-23 | 02:21 PM
#80
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Always fun to buy stuff for the bike! (serious)
06-29-23 | 02:23 PM
#81
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
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Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
It must be pretty strong to offset the negatives our contrarian experiences. Think how hard playing the solitary genius must be. Suffering bizarre fit on dubious equipment, all contact points unique, How many among us would do that 19 mile TT with a saddle tilted at 45 degrees? In jorts? On flip flops? The commitment!! And to then receive no appreciation of that genius. 
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06-29-23 | 02:24 PM
#82
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
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From: SF Bay Area
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
06-29-23 | 02:28 PM
#83
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
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From: SF Bay Area
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
06-29-23 | 02:31 PM
#84
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Seems like that's what they are saying. I just wanted to dispute the dogma. The other thing I quoted is just s shpiel from Canyon bikes. I could probably find more but meh.
06-29-23 | 02:59 PM
#86
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From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
You have to go all-in if one is doing this. Not just one ride. But, perhaps a few weeks or months. A couple of century rides.
For those that used toe clips, the conversion to clipless is generally quick and easy, but not without a couple of speed bumps.
For those that have never had foot retention, there are a few new things to learn. I.E. The foot doesn't just slip off the side of the pedal and down to the ground. One must consciously unclip, sometimes a few yards before one plans to stop.
Toe clips (without cleats), one can push down and back to release. With cleats, one can add a twist. Pre loosening straps can help, but is only necessary for getting the foot back into the pedal.
Clipless, a good twist and perhaps upward lift to get the foot out.
My biggest issues with clipless came with riding up my driveway. If I lost traction and lost forward momentum, I got caught a couple of times not getting my feet to the ground quickly enough. I learned to watch the no forward momentum moments.
06-29-23 | 03:38 PM
#87
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When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
- More efficient power transfer and smoother pedalling technique
- Secure foot placement on the pedal which stops your foot sliding off
- Better for climbing up hills where you can take advantage of an upward pedal stroke
06-29-23 | 05:16 PM
#88
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
06-29-23 | 05:53 PM
#89
Cheerfully low end
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When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
Effects of pedal type and pull-up action during cycling - PubMed (nih.gov)
- More efficient power transfer and smoother pedalling technique
- Secure foot placement on the pedal which stops your foot sliding off
- Better for climbing up hills where you can take advantage of an upward pedal stroke
”There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.”
Otto
06-29-23 | 06:01 PM
#90
For The Fun of It
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From: Louisissippi Coast
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
There have been a lot of tests done on this and most cyclists aren't doing enough pulling to make a meaningful difference. You won't likely see any difference in your times.
06-29-23 | 06:12 PM
#91
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
Ok, so this is the actual text from the paper abstract about their results, distinct from Canyon’s rewrite, just in case there is a lack of clarity:
”There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.”
Otto
”There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86 % for C and 57 % NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9 % and 3.3 % reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency.”
Otto
Much more enjoyable
06-29-23 | 06:26 PM
#93
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All the data I’ve seen from various studies of power measurement shows varying degrees of negative torque during the upstroke at normal cadence and relatively high power. Pro cyclists are generally better at minimising this negative upstroke torque ie they do a better job of unweighting their leg. If there is data to show someone producing significant positive torque on the upstroke while pedalling at a normal cadence and relatively high power I would love to see it. Maybe the study you linked shows that somewhere?
I ride clipless on my road bike and flats on my mtb. I don’t find my feet lifting up off the pedals during the upstroke when switching from clipless to flats. So I know I’m not producing power on the upstroke. I also rode mtb clipless for many years before switching to flats and I didn’t notice any significant loss in power.
But anyway, there are plenty of other good reasons to use clipless pedals, so definitely worth trying.
06-29-23 | 06:40 PM
#94
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From: In the foothills of Los Angeles County
I only read the Abstract of that study. How did they measure pedal effectiveness and what did they mean by pedal force feedback?
All the data I’ve seen from various studies of power measurement shows varying degrees of negative torque during the upstroke at normal cadence and relatively high power. Pro cyclists are generally better at minimising this negative upstroke torque ie they do a better job of unweighting their leg. If there is data to show someone producing significant positive torque on the upstroke while pedalling at a normal cadence and relatively high power I would love to see it. Maybe the study you linked shows that somewhere?
I ride clipless on my road bike and flats on my mtb. I don’t find my feet lifting up off the pedals during the upstroke when switching from clipless to flats. So I know I’m not producing power on the upstroke. I also rode mtb clipless for many years before switching to flats and I didn’t notice any significant loss in power.
But anyway, there are plenty of other good reasons to use clipless pedals, so definitely worth trying.
All the data I’ve seen from various studies of power measurement shows varying degrees of negative torque during the upstroke at normal cadence and relatively high power. Pro cyclists are generally better at minimising this negative upstroke torque ie they do a better job of unweighting their leg. If there is data to show someone producing significant positive torque on the upstroke while pedalling at a normal cadence and relatively high power I would love to see it. Maybe the study you linked shows that somewhere?
I ride clipless on my road bike and flats on my mtb. I don’t find my feet lifting up off the pedals during the upstroke when switching from clipless to flats. So I know I’m not producing power on the upstroke. I also rode mtb clipless for many years before switching to flats and I didn’t notice any significant loss in power.
But anyway, there are plenty of other good reasons to use clipless pedals, so definitely worth trying.
The way I read it, they had the test subjects concentrate on pulling up with some sort of "feedback".
06-29-23 | 07:31 PM
#95
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+1 I went to Speedplay pedals in the late 90's and never looked back. I do have an "around town" errand bike with no retention system, but my serious bike, the one that gets used heavily, still has Speedplays. I love them, especially jetting away from a stop light or climbing out of the saddle.
06-29-23 | 08:13 PM
#97
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I don't know if it will make you faster or not, but I really like being clipped in. I feel that I have more control of the bike and my feet are also in the best position on the pedal to deliver as much power more efficiently.
06-29-23 | 08:24 PM
#98
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06-29-23 | 08:36 PM
#99
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Lots of posters are claiming that "studies" prove their points, but most of them aren't providing any citations. In my world, we don't give such people a first thought, much less a second thought.
And don't get me started on the posters who've never used clipless, or the poster who tried it once and fell down a bunch of times and then came here to tell us all that we're idiots for using clipless pedals. There's a whole lot of confirmation bias going on with some of those folks.
And don't get me started on the posters who've never used clipless, or the poster who tried it once and fell down a bunch of times and then came here to tell us all that we're idiots for using clipless pedals. There's a whole lot of confirmation bias going on with some of those folks.
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06-29-23 | 09:19 PM
#100
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This is what I did. I bought some fairly inexpensive shoes and the (clip on one side) Shimano PD-M324 pedals and the SH56 cleats. Some say this kind of cleat releases too easy but it hasn't happened to me yet and it has to be more secure than flats. As long as you are keeping pressure on, your feet will stay clipped. Only thing I don't like about any of them is when you need a split second to put your foot down, you'll be using that split second to unclip until it becomes second nature. I haven't hit the deck yet, but I've had a few close calls. I do like the having the flat side available, it works great in heavy traffic if you are starting and stopping a bunch. I may just keep the one sided pedals for a long time. Best of both worlds except for having to flip the pedal to the side you want. If you are racing, I can see where that may be a problem time wise. I really only decided to use the cleats because I have terrible foot posture and it was hurting my knees. This has helped me keep in perfect alignment and it really cut down on the pain. And it's true, you feel like you are one with the bike.
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