I may be able to get a Felt F-35 at a real good price. The only problem is that it has a double crank and there are some hills where I really think I would have a problem without a triple. My normal rides shouldn't be a problem though.

So, can anyone give me an idea of what it might cost if I decided to convert to a triple with the same brand components? This is what it has (not sure what parts would need changing):

Shifters: Shimano dura-Ace 18 speed
F/Derailler: Shimano Dura-Ace
R/Derailler: Shimano Dura-Ace GS
Crankset: FSA Carbon Pro 53/39
Chain: Shimano Ultegra
Freewheel: Shimano 12-23 9s

Bob

You'll need to replace your bottom bracket, front derailleur, rear derailleur, crankset, and at least the front shifter. Might as well toss a new chain on and replace some cables while you're at it.

It won't be cheap.

I suggest you call your LBS or check out some of the online vendors to find prices.

I don't understand why he'd need to replace either of the shifters. Certainly no need for the rear, and I thought the new Shimano front shifters were all double and triple compatible.

You might first want to try riding a double with a 12-27 cassette. Big change from the 12-23, and the shifting on the front mech is much nicer with a double (at least it has been on all the 105 & Ultegra bikes I've ridden).

OR an alternative, and much cheaper than going to a triple and darn good, is to replace the rear dérailleur and cassette for a Shimano XT MTB rear dérailleur and cassette. That set-up works better than good, costs less than 1/4 than replacing almost your entire drivetrain. The rear shifting is not quite as precise as with the Dura Ace set-up, but then nothing else is, but it works very well.

The standard Dura Ace front shifters are double only and the rear dérailleur may not work satisfactorily with the 12/27 cassette, there usually isn't enough adjustment with the B screw to keep the top jockey wheel from hitting the largest cog, and it may not have enough wrap capacity. Usually a long cage rear dérailleur is necessary. The rear shifter won't have to be changed if a long cage or MTB rear dérailleur is used.

Sorry... was having a brain fart. Realized after I posted that Dura Ace does have different front shifters for double and triple.

The DA short cage derailleur specs are the same as for 105 and Ultegra, which both work fine with a 12-27 cassette. I've never tried it with a DA short cage, though.

I may be overlooking something, but I can't find any reference to a triple compatible Dura-Ace shifter on Shimano's website. The Ultegra front shifter is now double/triple compatible.

I agree, by the way, that swapping out the cassette for one with a wider gear range makes sense. I don't know what kind of hills TheRCF is looking at.

I said that he'll have to replace "at least" the front shifter. Replacing just the front shifter should do the job, but then he'd have mismatched shifters.

While I'm following all this with great interest (much more complicated than I thought), I'll report on my hills.

Testing the new bike, I rode up Diamond Head and I was using the lowest gear it had. Diamond Head is not my worst hill (grin).

Another place I have ridden near Waikiki is Tantalus - about a 5 mile climb. On my present bike, I am almost always in the lowest gear (28 front and I think a 32 rear). It's a Bianchi Volpe and kinda heavy - around 28 pounds without my stuff on it. And I guess the geometry isn't as good for climbing but I don't know much about that stuff.

There are a number of shorter hills, but also steeper ones, that I will only ride on occasion, such as riding around the island.

Nope, you're right... just my brain going troppo at the end of the week.

Fair enough. Just didn't want to be worrying TheRCF about things he didn't have to replace to convert to triple. Is part # ST7703 DA Shift Lever triple sold as a single piece? Shimano only lists weight for the front, so assuming it is.

TheRCF - if you were willing to change the crank for a DA triple instead of the FSA carbon, Performance sell an upgrade kit with everything you need (except maybe a new chain) here.

I want to come ride in your back yard!

Actually, it sounds to me like you'd do well to go with a triple. I "upgraded" to a triple on my roadie a few years ago and have no regrets. I only need that granny ring a couple of times a year, but when I need it, I'm glad it's there.

The performance upgrade kit looks like a decent deal if you can do the work yourself.

You might be able to offset the cost of the new parts by selling the old one. Dura Ace...even used DA...gets good money on eBay.

If you aren't racing, consider Ultegra. It performs well and costs less.

> I want to come ride in your back yard! <

I've got to admit, it is really nice. No off-season to recover from and almost never a dog loose. I wish they cleaned the roads more in places, but the drivers tend to be pretty good about cyclists.

> Actually, it sounds to me like you'd do well to go with a triple. <

I agree, but this bike MIGHT be gotten pretty cheap - maybe as little as $775. If I get that lucky, I might need to take advantage of it rather than paying double that (more for a triple). Looking at info one poster gave for a kit to upgrade, it was about $700 all by itself (plus labor since I'm not mechanical) so I probably won't be making that change for a long time (until I wear out the initial components).

I figure even if a double leaves me with problems, I could resell it later at minimal loss. But maybe, over time, I'd develop to the point where the double would be fine.

> You might be able to offset the cost of the new parts by selling the old one. Dura Ace...even used DA...gets good money on eBay. <

That's true. I keep forgetting that I can offset some of the cost of upgrading to a triple.

> If you aren't racing, consider Ultegra. <

So what advantage is the Dura-Ace?

Bob

Well, I got the winning bid on the bike - not as cheap as I hoped, but not more than what I set as my limit - actually, it was exactly my limit!

It was a little frustrating to watch other bikes go at the minimal price acceptable or slightly more, only to see the one bike I wanted keep going up!

But its a fine bike and probably the last I'll buy for a very long time - until the darn frame falls apart! Now to investigate the various ideas I've seen here.

I'm assuming that I can switch to a 12/27 until the store tells me otherwise. But what about an 11/27 or something? The highest gear is a bit higher than what I have now, I think (11/48), but I'm thinking it would be nice to stretch it out a little. And since I'm not racing, I don't think I really need the gears to be as close as they are - not that that is bad, but I'm thinking I may be better off with a wider range if it doesn't screw up anything else.

Also, we've talked about the rear gears a lot. Can anything be done with the front (presently 39/53)? I was wondering if the 39 could be smaller without causing other problems.

Bob

Congratulations on the new bike!

Dura Ace is Shimano's top end componentry. It is lighter than Ultegra and has nicer finishes. Ultegra performs beautifully and costs less. If you aren't a racer, you probably won't notice the weight.

As for the gear ranges, one of the mechanics who post here could probably answer better than I. I'm sure your Local Bike Shop could supply the answers too.

Congrats on getting the bike you really wanted!

Shimano doesn't offer a 11/27 cassette, though you could purchase an 11t cog and the necessary special lockring needed for it. Most riders can't really use an 11t cog with a 53t chainring, so it's not really missed.

The smallest chainring that will fit is a 38t, which will gain you so little for more than a few dollars.

Buying the 12/27 cogset, and after a little training, you will be able to tell if it will meet your needs or not. Diamond Head is short but steep so your young legs should work fine. Tantalus on the other hand is a *****! When I lived in Hawaii (seems like a hundred years ago) we'd take our motorcycles up it. It was tough, hard and very demanding on them! You will have to learn to pace yourself up Tantalus, and spin, spin, spin.

I have a friend that lives on Maui and likes to ride up Haleakala, 0-10,000 and back down. Now that's a hill!

> Most riders can't really use an 11t cog with a 53t chainring, so it's not really missed. <

What do you mean by "can't"? Doesn't it fit properly or what?

> The smallest chainring that will fit is a 38t, which will gain you so little for more than a few dollars. <

Well, I guess that answers that unless they made an even swap - in which case every little bit helps!

> Buying the 12/27 cogset, and after a little training, you will be able to tell if it will meet your needs or not. Diamond Head is short but steep so your young legs should work fine. <

Young legs? I'm almost 55 plus I only started riding two years ago as of February 24th - but I will pass the 11,000 mile mark tomorrow. Diamond Head doesn't strike me as steep anymore - sort of medium, especially when I compare to going out past Hawaii Kai and climbing up to Makapu'u Lookout (and usually into the wind too).

> Tantalus on the other hand is a *****! When I lived in Hawaii (seems like a hundred years ago) we'd take our motorcycles up it. It was tough, hard and very demanding on them! You will have to learn to pace yourself up Tantalus, and spin, spin, spin. <

I've climbed it 4 times. It just wears at you for 5 miles with only a couple extremely short breaks well over halfway up. This is one of the hills that worries me, though I don't "need" to climb it other than it is there (grin). Since I basically stick with my lowest gear 90% of the way, I'm not sure how this double crank will work.

> I have a friend that lives on Maui and likes to ride up Haleakala, 0-10,000 and back down. Now that's a hill! <

I haven't been to Maui yet, but I could see myself riding up there - just not by bike!!! But do you happen to know how many miles it takes to reach that altitude?

Bob

Interesting. I read somewhere that racers typically don't use the very lightest components because the next level down (by weight) is less likely to break and the weight difference isn't enough to make up for less dependability. Don't know if that was based on Dura-Ace vs Ultegra or not.

Bob

Bob: You're just a baby! I'm 62 and bought my first bike in 2000. I think I'm working on my 23rd or 24th bike now. I've learned many things by experience and some the hard way.

When I say can't use the 11t cog with a 53t chainring I mean unable to use it to it's max. If you were to spin out in that combo, I think you would be doing 55~60mph! So a 12t is more useful to us mere mortals.

I don't know the exact distance from sea level to the summit of Haleakala, but my friend who is a racer wants to break the four-hour mark. So far his best time up the mountain is 4:18.

If you were to ask me, which you haven't, I would tell you to ride your new bike for a couple of weeks, try the hills and then make an informed decision on which would be the best path to take to achieve your goal of the perfectly equipped bike. I live in eastern Washington near the Idaho border. We are surrounded by hills, more hills and then some mountains. Several years ago I bought my first double equipped bike and on the recommendation of a very good bike shop, changed out the rear dérailleur and cassette for an MTB dérailleur and cassette. Big difference! But not quite enough for our mountains, so my next bike was triple equipped. I still have the double bike and enjoy riding it, but use the triple when I'm in the mountains or on a longer multi-day ride.

I lived in Hawaii Kai for several years so I know I know that road well.

Except for the crankset, Dura Ace is lighter than Ultegra. The Dura Ace crankset is a different design than Ultegra and incorporates the bottom bracket axle, making Dura Ace lighter overall.