chewybrian 

Thank you! Barrack, you've posted like 25 times in this thread without saying anything. I know you're intelligent. You have a right to your opinion. It's not unreasonable to be against CM. But, you also have an obligation to prove your point, support your argument. If not, then, after the 20th time or so, maybe give it up. I think you've p.o.'d more people in this thread than the 100 riders in my CM ride did.

25hz

He didn't say he was going to piss people off, YOU said that. Pay attention. YOU are the one who has a major problem with CM, but then people with your attitude, it's no wonder their CMs suck. You're all about circular logic - a broken record. Lots of CMs work just fine. The majority work fine. You don't like them, fine. You're starting to look more like a troll than a cyclist.

25hz

"Everyone" isn't blocked from going "anywhere". If you've got a problem with idiots at the CMs in your area, and the CMs are such a PITA for you, why not do something constructive about it and try to make them more like CMs in other areas where there are NO problems instead of coming in here and whining about how ALL CMs cause problems? Because it would take actual effort?

25hz

And what if the answer is "No" to all your questions? If it is, then it enforces what people do every day while they commute on a bike, like me, unless narrowminded cyclists are like narrow minded drivers and have a blindered view of all CMs because of zero or localized experiences with them. You like to talk about wider responsibility of CM riders who might make things worse for you, yet you have no problem not taking responsibility for the dickheads who give CM a bad name in your area, and also globally. How does that double standard work, exactly? Don't complain about CMs that run in other areas with no problem. Why don't you go sort out the ones in your area with trouble makers instead? CM isn't the problem, people are the problem. At the same time, it's not ok for lots of cyclists to legally ride their bikes ONCE a month, but you're saying it IS ok for motorists to turn roadways into parking lots, twice a day, 6 days a week, AND pump tons of smog into the air that EVERYONE has to breathe in? More selective logic.

Again, if you don't care that your local CMs ruin it for everyone else, why should I care that you don't like our local ones that DON'T cause problems?? Makes no sense. How is it you don't see that your "logic" points in both directions, and you are oblivious to your end of the bargain?

Riding a bike is not civil disobedience. Being a dickhead on a bike is no difference than a dickhead in a car, but conveniently, an idiot in a car doesn't condemn every motorist, yet an idiot on a bike condemns every cyclist. Don't see the logic behind that either. Maybe CMs are tapering off because people can't be bothered doing anything but riding a bike? Advocacy means more than just riding a bike, sorry. Maybe dealing with idiots on bikes the same we idiots in cars are dealt with is too much effort? Why does there need to be a leader to a CM ride? Who's the leader of auto traffic? Who's in charge of the daily traffic jams? You want leadership? Lead by example. Nto a lot of glory, pay is low, but then that's what the majority of motorists do when they obey the traffic regulations, right? Explain how that process wouldn't work on a bike? That's rhetorical of course, because we both know it DOES work. It works every time you stop at a sign, signal lane changes and stop at red lights on your bike. Same way people do it in CMs. If people aren't doing it in your area, what are YOU doing to fix that? Nothing? Condemn CMs globally? Both I think.

CMs don't foster militants. Lazy CM participant ALLOW militants to operate where they think they can hide. Turn their asses over to the cops just like you'd do if you saw a car running red lights, driving dangerously or speeding. Fellow cyclists are resistant because they are lazy, and they're just using the troublemakers as an excuse to stay that way. Cyclists might not like the trouble makers in CM rides, but they're too lazy to do anything about it. They want someone else to come fix the owie. Just like cops and regular motorists do all the time with trouble motorists. The "system" is officially set up to do that with motorists, and according to the law, it's also set up to do exactly that with/for cyclists too. Problem is, people don't see it that way. Motorists don't see it that way. Cops don't see it that way. Even cyclists don't see it that way. As a supposed advocate, on whatever level, of cycling, one would think it was in the best interests to address that mindset. To fix that mental issue. To remind everyone that cylists ARE vehicles under the letter of the law and are subject to the same restrictions and priviledges as any other vehicle on the roads.

Holy ****! That's EXACTLY what CM is about in the first place! Imagine that! So, if CM is accomplishing exactly the OPPOSITE of what it was started for, then it's broken, and because it's a "thing", it didn't break itself. People broke it. Turn your computer off, and go address the people that broke it. Make things better instead of trying to remove something that works great in other places where cyclists act like vehicular traffic. People are getting lazier on every level, and fatter as a result too. Everything is push button, or insta, or pay someone to do it for me. "Well, we could fix CM in our area, but that would mean I'd have to get off my chair-shaped ass and actually do something more than whine about CMs on bike fora. Nah, get rid of the CMs, problem solved. Buuurp." Take responsibility. It doesn't need leadership, it needs less apathy. It needs less laziness.

WCoastPeddler

Wow. 25hz, you make a few good points but most of it is lost in the rant.

I was hoping that we could turn this discussion into something productive and positive where suggestions are offered to turn this CM thing into something that might work for everyone.

Perhaps it would be best to leave the slagging of other people's ideas and contributions in this thread at the door?

Robert asked me a question about 4 aspects of CM and I answered him with what I thought was reasonable and was waiting for his reply. Please give him a chance to respond before jumping on him.

You say that some CM's don't have problems -- that's not true. They all do. Even in Vancouver. The hope here is that with useful and rational discussion, that we can maybe come up with some suggestions that might contribute to a solution. Belittling others for their suggestions is not going to foster that type of dialog. Well, except in the case of BarracksSi -- but then I'm hoping that the discussion has evolved beyond the capabilities of his 5 word replies.

Please, let's look for solutions instead of turning this into more bickering.

spinnaker

And that is the problem CM events don't work for everyone. They only work for those that think it is somehow OK for a mob to take over the streets and block them for everyone else. Seems like a selfish attitude to me.

WCoastPeddler

Good grief. Did you even read the last couple of pages of this thread?

BlazingPedals

This thread isn't about making CM work for everyone or about cleaning it up. The op asked how to start one and the majority of respondents have basically said, "please don't." If you really want to argue the merits and demerits, it should be in A&S; not here.

WCP: What do you sell?

WCoastPeddler

Hey, the discussion just went that way. In itself, all the "please don't" comments were off topic too, but I don't see you complaining about that. At least I'm trying to do something positive rather than being a crank.

Fun and sensibility. I'm sure that's not what you sell though.

BarracksSi

Again, to the OP:

Start one and see what happens.

WCoastPeddler

Awesome! Nice to see that you're finally a supporter of CM!

BarracksSi

I just want him to see for himself what a stupid idea it is instead of coming here and asking a similarly stupid question.

"How do I start a Critical Mass?"

Answer: Um, how about... lessee here... START ONE.

WCoastPeddler

And you guys all talk about hatred, but I've seen nothing but from any of the naysayers even when suggestions are made to improve something that you don't like. It's no wonder this world is so screwed up.

At least I make an effort to try and make things better. What did you do to make the world a better place today?

Robert Foster

Time for the fertilizer flag. We get the term corking from CM events so Corking does take place. But that isn’t the point of the debate. If you don’t want my respect or support that is perfectly fine with me. I have no investment in you or your organization.

A suggestion was made as to what I believe it would take to get other cyclists support and I have one. Give us someone to talk to as the organizer of the ride. Post the route so motorists can be made aware of where it is going. Have someone responsibe or a committee that the community can express their concerns to. Stop at red lights and if you are going to be a parade get a permit. Suggest those things at any CM meeting you might attend and some of us that do attend public meetings with our city councils and planning committees. Otherwise count yourself as much an opponent of cycling groups like the ones I belong to as the jerks that you are complaining about in your posts.

With all the trouble some, maybe not all, CM events have had, and if you simply read up on the history of the events, there is a reason some of us have a concern. It is not our responsibility to defend you or your organization, if you had one. It is yours to prove your worth. Those of us who have supported charities with our events can point to something positive as we sit in front of our city leaders and ask for more cycling infrastructure.

You fight the “Man” if you wish but fight other cyclists? Don’t come to us asking for support if you don’t give a rat’s about our concerns. Belittle the concerns of other cycling advocates and you cut yourself off from people that do cycle every day. If that is what you want, go for it. Form your ride without our input.

This left the debate stage with your post and became a in your face statement. If that is what you want, CM without some of us. We will side with the Cagers. Your choice.

BlazingPedals

CMers don't understand that they're accomplishing exactly zero in the positive direction and varying amounts in the negative direction. If they want to do so, they can do it without my help or support. In fact, Robert and I are probably not the only ones here who would gladly organize a 'pedestrian CM' to cork a bicycle CM, just to see what happens.

My answer to the original question would be, "Do absolutely nothing. CM claims their 'demonstrations' are entirely without leadership and are completely spontaneous. Therefore, just show up. To do otherwise would be to admit that the founding principles are based on lies. Which they are, but we'll try to ignore that aspect.

WCoastPeddler

Good luck with that.

WCoastPeddler

I'm extremely surprised at the narrow minded and shallow views exhibited by some people here.

It sure doesn't enamor me to want to rush out and get involved in the advocacy programs that you've all mentioned if they're full of people like you who can't envision, or even try to envision something working for everyone or turning something problematic around. And you all have the audacity to say that CMers are selfish. Give your heads a shake.

Hopefully, someone with some foresight will chime in here.

BarracksSi

Count me in. I think it'll be hilarious.

Like you have room to talk.

BarracksSi

Let me reiterate something:

That response is EXACTLY what an angry cager would say.

WCoastPeddler, you truly don't understand what it's like on the other side. Worse, you choose to not understand.

There aren't many personality traits that piss me off more than chosen ignorance.

WCoastPeddler

Oh, I understand perfectly fine -- if you'd been actually reading my posts you'd see that.

BarrachsSi, is it possible for you to make a post without personal insults?

BarracksSi

At least I'm not being a pu$$y by hiding behind the broad-yet-directed term "some people".

Nermal

Well, there you have it. Agree, or just shut up.

Keeping in mind your first amendment right to peaceably assemble, of course.

WCoastPeddler

That's correct -- you don't need to hide behind anything to be a *****.

And if you had any comprehension of the English language you would know that "some people" doesn't mean everyone. You however, firmly do fall under the "some people" category that I refer to.

BarracksSi

Ha! And you whine about personal attacks when you've been doing them the whole time.

WCoastPeddler

Sometimes I have a weak moment and can't help myself. You however, appear to live in a weak moment.