What are you DOING to your frames? Riding them through an assault on the Death Star? My plan was to strip it, yes, but I don't give a hoot what anyone thinks of the name on my downtube, and I would wager that I could ride the Wal-Mart bike 330 days a year commuting and live to tell the tale, if safety is your concern. Actually, what is your concern?

Potential income loss. Imagine more and more consumers heading toward online dealers for bicycles? Save our LBS even though they often look down at customers who bring their non-branded LBS (let alone bought from them) bikes for servicing! Who cares about $$$ loss, gotta maintain the mythical aura that a two-wheel chain driven metal contraption requires the same level of maintenance that of the space shuttle! :lol:

Any bikes no matter where you buy, as long as it's under $2000 will likely have its frame sourced from China or Taiwan. Also the reason why Walmart can sell 105-equipped bikes at such low prices vs. an LBS is just by sheer economics of scale. Makes you wonder the profit behind that CAAD 5 or that Trek 1.5 sitting at your LBS.

Having said that, good LBS deserved customer's $. The LBS that I go to is run by honest genuine folks. None of those attitude problems so prevalent in many LBS. FYI, mtbr.com has a list of LBS reviews contributed by patrons. The sooner LBS realise how much $ they are losing to places like MEC or REI the sooner they will drop that "holier than thou" attitude towards customers wheeling in their non Ultegra or Deore LX equipped bicycles for servicing.

Safety.
There are a lot of Denalis roaming around Indy, where I used to work. I've seen a lot of broken ones, too. They like to crack at the headtube.

As for the $500 105 road bike, it's just that I wouldn't expect a nice-riding bike is all I'm saying. Wal-Mart can sell at those prices because a) they buy enough to get them cheap but also b) they can dictate to a manufacturer how much they are going to pay for an item. As such, the manufacturer will cheap out more than normal to still make a profit off of Wal-Mart's price point. In other words, don't expect good finishing on the frame, clean welds, or even decent frame alignment.

BikesDirect, on the other hand...as much as I don't like the whole concept, I can't say many bad things about their bikes. Ok, the "Wellington 2.0" I can, but the others seem to be fine.

I don't care about the name on the downtube either - as long as it's not Trek. :p
I'll work on whatever is dragged through the door, and I'll try to make it work as well as is possible. Yes, cheap bikes mean more work for me with no extra money - a tune up is $40 whether it's a Denali that takes 4 hours or a Gunnar that takes 30 minutes. There's something satisfying about seeing a total piece still being ridden after you've worked on it, though.

People keep implying that where something is made solely determines quality. Crap can be built anywhere. Anyway, quality frames have been made in Taiwan for many years. No doubt, crappy frames are made in Taiwan too.

Walmart does have a large economy of scale but they also requires things to be made differently (eg [edit: was "ie"], cheaper). That is, the skill and qualify control for Walmart stuff isn't necessarily going to be the same as for a LBS frame.

Of course, one reason Walmart can sell stuff so cheaply is that they don't have to service it, which means they don't need a shop or skilled staff to support.

The bike you buy from an LBS helps keep them in business so they are there for you to bring their to. (That is, service doesn't provide enough to keep a LBS running.)

If an LBS can be "holier than thou" about "Ultegra or Deore LX", then they are only selling high-end bicycles. Since most LBS sell a wide range of bicycles, most LBS are not "holier than thou"!

Again, keep in mind that Walmart, etc, can sell bicycles cheaply because they don't have to pay to support being able to service them! The LBS isn't really in the business of making Walmart more profitable (and service fees are not enough to keep a business running).

Agreed. Huffys were built in the US. Waterfords are also built in the US.

From the Walmart website:

"This bike was assembled by the hands of skilled Italian mechanics to be tuned up and ready to ride right out of the box. : :lol:

Note that this is part of the reason BikesDirect can sell so cheaply.

Many of their customers go to LBSs to determine the size of the bike they need and buy a BikesDirect's bike with that knowlege. That is, they have the benefits of a brick-and-mortar shop without the cost of running that shop.

I agree with everything posted here

I'm pretty sure I know what you are saying, and agree with you. In an effort to respond to every post in which I am quoted:

This is a textbook definition of Economies of Scale, and it is an accepted fact of life in Capitalism. I don't know what the profit is on an LBS Trek, all I know is as a consumer I am able to purchase a BD (2010 equipped) 105 Windsor for $250 less than the 2009 spec'd Trek 1.5. There is a price point at which the premium paid to an LBS becomes sour to the consumer, and $250 is well past that, and that's if the bikes were spec'd the same.

I test rode a Trek 1.5 at the LBS just yesterday. It is a bike, that's all I can say. Like anything else that becomes infectiously popular, there is a backlash, and I understand it. Trek to me is like the Kleenex of bikes - does the job, but so does store brand.

With respect to the Italian mechanics quote, yes, it makes us all laugh. We are in a niche market, and I would say that on BF, this is an inside joke. To Joe Q. Consumer who shops at Wal-Mart all the time and doesn't cycle on a regular basis, this marketing actually works on him.

FWIW, I also agree with everything billyymc said.

That is all.

Sure I wholly agree that Taiway/China makes quality frames. My response was to a comment alluding to a the WalMart Corsa with 105 parts is inferior to that of a 3X more costly LBS version of a similarly equipped bike. I am simply making it clear that the irregardless of LBS or WalMart, the frames likely come from the same mfg plant in the Orient.

Please cite source. Conjectures and anecdotes will be rejected.
Do you seriously believe that Shimano or Sram has two assembly lines to make 105s, Ultegras, Force and Reds? One is to be mfg with a lower quality than the other? :roflmao2:
I can imagine it now.... "that Ultegra piece from Amazon.com... nah, it's crap. But my Ultegra bought from my LBS is superior". Why would Shimano or any brand mfg want to shoot itself on the foot by risking their premium models falling apart on rides?
Kinesis or Giant are the two large frame makers for bikes that I know of, they offer various types of frames to bike companies. Is there a way to tell the frame for the Corsa is any worse than that of a Cannondale? Don't know until you are a metallurgist or got a hold of the frame's ID for Xref.

The price reflects simply the muscle of economies of scale from Wal Mart side. Do you not notice that around this time of the year, the previous year bike at an LBS which costs $2000 goes off on a major discount? That tells me there's some serious profit margin fat that can be shaved in order to move the bicycle. While I don't see anything wrong with trying to make money, after all a business has to be profitable right? But don't blame consumers for trying to save money too.


Certainly this is the first time I am reading this excuse. Because the excuse by LBS regarding high price products was due to the dictation of the bike mfg itself. And that the LBS' hands are tied:rolleyes: . Similar to the car dealerships' excuses. Visit the many complains regarding Canadian LBS bike pricing discrepancies!

The problem is that you have no idea whether or not it is "likely". It's pure conjecture!

See earlier comment.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/...n_snapper.html

I'm not making that claim. I'm talking about the frame. I'd expect the 105 components to be the same.

One of the reasons they can do this is due to depreciation. Anyway, this is a well-known thing and if a customer wants to take advantage of it, they are free to do so (hopefully, the right size would still be available).

I'm not doing that.

You have lost all credibility with that reply regarding sub-$2000 bike frame origins. No further comments to your post is needed. :roflmao2:

Where is your "citation" that the frames are the same quality?

It doesn't matter whether the frames were made at the same place, since even Shimano makes component lines with different quality levels in the same factory.

What matters is whether the frames are equivalent quality.

Where did I ever said they are of same quality? Putting words in someone's thread doesn't count. I even admitted that I don't know if there is a way to tell the difference unless one is a metallurgist or have a frame ID for xref. (see my earlier reply)

You make me :lol:

Oh good Lord, you guys. Economies of scale do not apply if you use different materials/designs - that is an entirely different product. Economies of scale apply only when apples to apples are used, as far as I'm concerned. Wal-Mart may make a cheaper t-shirt, but it's always too short in the torso and doesn't last as long. That is not the same as the t-shirt I buy at Target as the fit is different and the materials, while similar, are not the same.

Now if my LBS was selling the same Windsor Fens I'm looking at, THAT would be apples to apples. I must say that, after some research, the Wal-Mart bike, while still a good deal, is not as good of a deal as when I first posted the idea. Bikes Direct fills an important void in between big box bikes and LBS bikes - there's a price point in there, and BD took advantage of it. More power to 'em.

You implied it.

If the frames are not of the same quality, they are not "similarly equipped". If the frames are not of the same quality, the prices are not really comparable!

So what? It doesn't matter where the frames are made!

The thing that is relevant to the price difference is the relative quality of the frames not where they were made!

===========================

Yes.

Just sold my Moto' CX on Tuesday and waiting for another BD bike to arrive. :thumb:

Are you being dense or something? Similarly equipped is in reference to the Shimano groupset.

Again we do not know whether the frames are of the same quality. And I never said they were. This is like the 3rd time I am posting it. Is my post being translated to Arabic? :rolleyes:
However I will not be the least surprise if they are of similar quality. Go see how many different Roadbike Alu reference frames are offered at Kinesis (www.kinesis.com.tw). To be specific - pure Aluminium frames none of those carbon seat stays or forks options for apples vs apples comparison. ;)

Just from an observer's point of view, having read through many BD posts on several forums... BD courts people until they buy and even then not all time as has been my experience. If the product is damaged or not as advertized, their customer service is slow and often full of bs, asking for pictures, etc. to make it harder for people to go through with a return. Like someone would want to go through the trouble of ordering then shipping the bike back for no reason.

I made a post in a forum section where "Mike" the BD owner frequents just asking a question about a bike... No response. Strange. I sent an e-mail asking a technical question about a certain bike... again no response. It just does not speak well to my chance of responsive and fair customer service, if I did order a bike and it came damaged as it is often reported to happen.

Someone said they must be OK if they are still around. There are gulliable people who purchase without checking the feedback and reviews out on the net.

The bottom line is that you could order from them get lucky with an undamaged as advertized bike or you could get a damaged bike not speced out as advertized and have a hell of a time straightening things out. In the end, it was not worth the risk to me.

Another thing that really bothers me about BD is that they put up some made up inflated "list price" and then contrast it with their lower selling price. If you look for/google those bikes they sell, you will not find them "listed" anywhere so there could not possibly be a "list" price. BD is in the process of making a website that will have the bikes listed with the "list price". But they are the ones putting them up on the site with whatever "list price" they want. Totally, fraudulant in my opinion.

I'm not sure why this issue bugs people. Go to your LBS and you'll see list prices on bikes, but no bikes are sold at those list prices.

I get the impression that the large majority of BD customers are satisfied with their purchases. There are a few very vocal people who've had some problems, and published the news on the internet -- including ONE site with a broken frame. Want to bet there are a few Trek's, Speccy's and Cdales out there with problems?

I don't own a BD bike, but the next bike I buy I will very seriously consider one.

No, you are talking about complete bikes here:

If you aren't talking about comparable bikes (frame, drive train, wheels) then who knows what the heck you are saying here!

Conjecture.

========================

The $600 Walmart Corsa FA bike (now $500) was originally $1000 in 2007!

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/news/newsDetail/268.html

The impication is that it is an Italian frame (I'm guessing it was assembled in Italy).

Seems equivalent to this $700 BD bike.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/windsor/fens_IX.htm

Really? I don't know of many shops that put a "List Price" on their bikes. Someone on another forum asked me about a Raleigh Talus 5.0 today, so the prices for that one are still in my mind. Raleigh has a normal MSRP and also a minimum retail. The MSRP is $550. The minimum retail is $500. Most shops will price the bike at $550. Why? Because we like to stay in business. Also because there are lots of people who think that buying a bike is like buying a car - that haggling on the price is acceptable. If it comes down to making no sale or cutting the price, we'll (reluctantly) go down to the minimum retail. That's when we try harder to sell accessories, since we make more money on those anyway.

Fuji is an exception. Fuji's MSRP and it's minimum retail have a much wider spread. Almost no Fuji dealers sell Fujis for MSRP. Fuji has one of the highest margins (MSRP) n the bike industry. That would be great if they (Ideal - the parent company of Fuji) weren't building bikes for BD. This throws the value of their bikes completely off. Anyone with a brain can look at a Motobecane triathlon bike and see that it's just a Fuji Aloha with different stickers. They give dealers an MSRP that's almost double what BD sells theirs for. Of course, the BD Aloha is a 2006 model.....

As to why it bugs people that BD puts a high list price on their bikes.... It's because NO ONE ELSE sells BD bikes. They are the only seller of Motobecane, Windsor, Mercier, etc. Who is the MSRP for? No one. As the only seller, what they sell for is the MSRP; not their inflated number that they use to make it look like such a great deal.

Fair enough Platy. The two local shops that I frequent -- one actually puts the MSRP on the tag, along with their price. The other doesn't, but they sure are aware of the MSRP and will even pull out their dealer catalog to show customers.

With the exception of iAnything, almost nothing is sold at MSRP in this world. So I disagree that the actual selling price should = the MSRP. I do agree with you that BD puts some pretty inflated MSRPs on most of their bikes though. I tend to ignore the MSRP and simply go straight to a comparison of components. People can argue frame quality all they want - but we don't have the details to really know the truth.

I want my LBS to stay in business, make a profit, put food on the tables of the guys who work there, etc. But I work hard for my money as well, and if I'm getting a hardtail MTB for my daughter (like I did this past summer) I'm going to be very hard pressed to spend $750 or $800 on that Rockhopper in the LBS when I can get arguably more bike by going to, in my case IBEX bikes, and spend $500. Now...IBEX went out of business, so I coudl get a little burned. But my 11 y.o. daughter isn't likely to break the frame anytime soon and the components will all go on a new frame if she does -- and I'll still be less than that Rockhopper in total cost. There is simply too much price gap and not enough value add from the LBS to fill it in that situation. I asked if they could do better on price, they said no. I'm not sure where the tipping point would hve been -- the IBEX was normally sold for $600, with an MSRP of $750 (heh) -- so maybe if the delta was less than $100 in price I would have spent the extra and stuck with the LBS. If that doesnt' give the LBS enough profit margin, then the manufacturers need to revise their pricing model to get in line with the reality that their dealer network is suffering.

A LBS is a business, not a charity.

BUT -- I would very much look down on people who would go into their LBS to reap their knowledge and expertise, with no intention of buying product there.

I've said it before, but direct sales will only continue to grow. A smart LBS will find a way to take advantage of that reality.

The aluminum frames used for lower-end (road) bikes sold by Walmart and equivalent are different from the frames of name-brand road bikes sold in bike stores. One of my commuter bikes is an AMX Patriot (aluminum frame with aero tubing, chro-mo fork, 8-speed Sora w/downtube shifters) that I bought from a pawn shop and was originally sold by Toys-R-Us (!); that bike weighs well north of 30 pounds because it has non-heat-treated tubing with thick walls. Building aluminum frames and skipping the heat-treating step saves the manufacturer a significant amount of time and money.

So that's one way to cheap out on bikes made to be sold in big-box stores. Another is that the bikes are offered in only one frame size up to a surprisingly high price point, even above the point where the lighter, heat-treated frames start showing up. That's another significant cost-cutting technique.

I don't doubt that the lighter-weight road bike frames at big box stores are comparable in quality to the equivalent bikes sold in bike stores. I wouldn't hesitate to buy one of the pricier ones if it happened to fit. And you have to like that no-questions-asked return policy, which is one area where the big-box stores beat the LBSs.

But I voted with my dollars by buying a BD Moto Le Champion SL 5 years ago. Great bike, no complaints.

That's interesting. Around where I live, if one wants to advertise reduced prices, they'll actually have to have sold the product at the non-reduced price earlier. They cannot just grab the non-reduced price out of thin air and claim the "now" price is 70% or 400 EUR lower.

--J