ok how is the best way to determan where the cleat needs tobe

Put on your cycling shoes and find out where the ball of your foot is. Make a mark across the sole of the shoe at this point. Your cleat should be centered on this axis. Some cleats are marked to make it easier to do this. Once you've established the fore-and-aft position you can futz with the amount heel-in or heel-out you need.

You can sit on a table where your feet hang freely. Look down at your feet to see if toes point out or in or straight ahead. Try to set up cleats to put your feet in the same natural position. And what steveE said.