Uh, perhaps you have ignored the very post you just quoted as well as the other posts that you have replied to in this thread but:

People have different beliefs of what is "rude."
Most people don't actually intend to be rude.
I'm not encouraging people to "intrude on other people's space uninvited." I'm trying to encourage you to not have your gun loaded and cocked before words are even spoken.

I'm not offended by your immaturity in the thread, it simply makes me feel like my efforts to introduce you to a new point of view are wasted.

Edit: And as I have said several times in the thread already, I am not the type to do the actions that you are so vehemently condemning.

Don't count on that, maybe in Orlando, not down here. I get people grabbing my wheel all of the time and generally it bothers me for the listed reasons. What I really hate is when the guy drafts you into a headwind for 5mi never taking a pull and then as soon as you turn off the wind he goes wizzing by you with a wave.

You are the one who is making an assumption that one's "gun is already loaded" and totally disregarding valid points of view...I believe the immaturity is in your mirror because you seem to spend so much time complaining about how points are presented that you make no effort to comprehend the point itself.

I have no idea why you keep protesting your innocence...nobody has accused you of anything, other than rhetorically. Perhaps you should put me on ignore, that way you wont be offended by mythical allegations and my immature turns of phrase.

Have a nice weekend...and please, don't be too hard on the people who invite themselves to dinner with you.

Where did I complain how points were presented where it wasn't needed to clarify a statement?

How is your gun not already loaded when you automatically apply your sense of what is rude and what is not to some stranger that ends up behind you in a public locale?

How does this quote not imply that you believe that I am one of those "wheel suckers" you hate so much?

(Edit: I suppose this is what you meant by rhetorically. I apologize for misunderstanding, but I do think it was a bit over-the-top)

I'm totally fine with agreeing to disagree, but I can see how that's difficult for someone who believes that his way is the only way. I don't suppose you're also conservative and Christian... How do you feel about proposition 8 being declared unconstitutional? Those gays are so evil aren't they, ruining us straights' sanctity of marriage and all.

Please venture into P&R (if you dare) and you will find out just how incorrect you are.
When you pull your foot out of your mouth, you can have the last word...I somehow think that you can't stand not to.
Best watch that foot though....unless of course you like the taste :lol:


Come back when you understand the concept of discussion and that expressing opinions is not indicative of one "who believes that his way is the only way".

I didn't say you were, I said I got the feeling you were. You display similar character traits, i.e. applying your own morals and values on other people who may have different morals and values.

Whether or not you will admit to it, that's what you're doing whenever you get auto-mad after someone gets behind you.

Anyway, I will admit that I was simply frustrated that the discussion was still where it began and leave it at that.

Also, I am jealous of your bikes.

I think the etiquette of the locale needs to be taken into account. If you're going to say it's a public location so my definition of rude isn't important if there's someone out there with a different definition of rude (most philosophers you meet will tell you that this version of relativism gets you nowhere and can be debunked with the old what if there's someone who thinks it's ok to torture babies for fun straw man argument), I'd have to say it's the local standard for what it rude that's important. If the person is riding in the U.S. where personal space is thought to be at a premium, no matter where they're from or what their personal belief about rudeness is, intruding on someone's personal space bubble is a violation of the local mores and is socially unacceptable. If you were to do that in Asia, intruding on someone's personal space might not be such a big deal. There might be other reasons why sucking someone's wheel uninvited might be socially unacceptable (or just not smart for safety reasons), but the rudeness of violating someone's bubble wouldn't be part of it. If you're a visitor to another culture it's your responsibility to conform to their social norms and mores (or accept being thought of as the "rude, fat american") not theirs to adapt to you.

What constitutes "not drafting" or "sucking a wheel"?
What is the litmus? So many wheels per mph? One bike length for every 10?
I've ridden and (perhaps) drafted people at two bike lengths arrears. Then I 'drope' the 'hamar' and sling around on a downhill to get a lead out.
Is it just not right when you don't take your turn?

I doubt the standard for the criteria is met when there is a collision due to sucking a wheel. That is just plain following too close. I'm sure lots of wheel sucking happens without collisions.
Back in the old days; crashing you car for tailgating was "infracted" as "too fast for conditions" - not the same as a ticket for following too closely.

I got one of those tickets when I first got my driver's license for violating the basic speed law when I got in a one car collision with a tree in the middle of nowhere on a rainy night.

If you are close enough to get the benefit of the draft, you are close enough that you'll likely touch wheels if the front rider brakes suddenly. Conversely, if you've got enough separation to give yourself time to react, you're probably not in the draft.

I was just messin' after the comment below posted by a FL rider!:D

Yup.
For awhile, in Montana, they had no speed limits on some roads. Their version of a speeding ticket was "too fast for conditions" when they scraped up what's left of you and your car off the roadway. Otherwise, it was a free for all.

Sorry... I'll stop going OT.

Careful.
You are alluding that there is no way to draft with minimal reaction time to prevent a collision. :innocent:

I never said that it wouldn't happen, I'm just saying that I don't see why people would stick on after being asked not to.

I've been drafted several times this summer on my commute home. We get a pretty bad west wind this time of year almost every afternoon. There's been a number of times when somebody called out to pass me and they're right on my back wheel and I never noticed it, or I just happen to look to the side and see a drafter in my peripheral vision.

So far it has not caused me any problems, so I honestly don't mind it. It seems like the riders who have done that to me are experienced at it and know what they're doing - which might be a horribly bad assumption on my part.

One time I came to a stop at an intercesection and a guy was right there with me and said, "thanks for the pull..." again I didn't know he was drafting. I said, "hey, no problem, I'd dig in and go faster if I knew you were there". He said, "that's alright, I appreciate commuters...... on windy days..." I didn't know how to take that honeslty, but I thought it was kinda funny.

btw - I would never try to draft a couple riding together for the same reason I would never plop my lawn chair down an inch from their picnic blanket.

:roflmao2:

Drafting can be dangerous, not only for you but really the guy behind you whose front wheel is about to end up in your cassette!

I'm Canadian too, and I've had it happen to me several times in Canada and here in Australia. It has happened to me while riding in the city a few times, but mostly out in the country. Most of the time it has happened when I've been riding by myself, and the other cyclist is the only one anywhere around.

For me, this is particularly disconcerting and very uncomfortable because I am female, and I am not a fast rider ... and the riders quietly sucking my wheel have been male. Quite frankly, it's creepy!

Back to the OP's situation ...

If the OP noticed that the two were deep in conversation, he should have backed off.
If the OP noticed that there seemed to be some erratic cycling going on ... slowing, speeding up, pulling over to the side, weaving back and forth, etc., he should have taken the hint and backed off.
If the OP noticed that he was riding over debris and falling into potholes while the riders in front were dodging all of that, he should have realised that 1) they were not pointing out the hazards; 2) riding right behind cyclist you don't know can be dangerous ... and he should have backed off.

Even backing off 10 or 20 feet gives the riders in front some breathing room ... they can hold their conversation without being overheard, they can feel comfortable doing things like eating, drinking, adjusting themselves on the saddle, and in the case of hazards on the road, 10 or 20 feet is room enough for the cyclist behind to see what's coming and take evasive action.

Or dangerous for the guy doing 40 and doesn't know someone is on their wheel. I was descending a mtn road (GMR), hit 40 on a straightaway. At the end of the section I sat up and turned my head just a bit to verify thru peripheral vision that I did not have a car behind me. Good thing I didn't touch the brakes or swerve cause some unannounced idiot was 6 inches off my wheel at 40 mph!:eek:

Usually the back guy goes down but at 40, if he hits me midbike, that's going to be bad!:mad:

Ok that would be creepy. I would not wheel suck in that situation because I'd feel weird if I came up behind a female rider out in the country even if I did talk. Like I was stalking or something.

I'd find it weird if it happened to me out on a rural road. I'd have to say something, to break the silence. weird.

Question along these lones.

If you/any other rider sees the wife and I on the trail, is it ok for him to jump on behind her? I'm at the front the entire time and she's riding my wheel. Would you (general) think it's ok to hop on her wheel or would think to just let us do our ride? Would hopping on be creepy? in this sit:D

Minimum speed to "feel" a draft?

drafting ninjas are everywhere!

Well, evidently some cyclists I've encountered think it is OK. I told the story earlier of one instance when Rowan and I were riding along the Great Ocean Road and that happened. The guy wasn't on Rowan's wheel ... he was on mine. Then Rowan reminded me of another time the same thing happened right toward the end of a ride we were doing ... same thing ... the guy latched onto my wheel, and rode there for about 5 km.

IMO, it's not as creepy as wheel sucking a lone female out in the middle of nowhere ... but it is still a little weird and rude.

And it would be less weird and rude if the person spoke ... said, "Beautiful day for a ride" or "Where have you ridden from today?" or something.

Oh, and I don't care if a rider comes up behind me and is there for a brief period of time ... sometimes that happens because traffic or road conditions or something are such that passing would be dangerous, or in a city situation, sometimes you end up going the same speed and stopping at the same lights or something.

SO and I take turns pulling each other on our commute (well, I do most of the pulling, it seems.) We talk about the day, road conditions etc. at 35 km/h quite easily. If you're drafting, the person in front has to be calling out hazards - you are following too closely to brake or avoid anything. If you're far enough back that you can fend for yourself, you're not in the sweet spot. You know pretty quick if you're drafting someone - you'll be pedalling a lot less than the guy in front of you.

I consider it rude to draft others without asking or otherwise indicating your presence - when it's raining, do you go up and stand under someone else's umbrella, stepping on their heels? Thankfully I've never been wheelsucked yet - we go too fast for the average commuter around here, and too slow for the roadies to bother.