Stumpjumper thank you very much for the information. I archived it. "The question was rhetorical..." Now i understand. And about that: "...you can't make a judgement based on the name of the maker...", yes that is true, i'm in agree with that.-

Brains i'm sorry i don't know nothing about THORN and ORBIT.

Gavin that is a interesting point, but anyway, a brand not only became popular by the publicity but also by the characteristics and the results.-
I'm leaving in Argentina, in a little province called Jujuy. I'm full of old magazines, i don't have more place for magazines.- Thank you very much for your offer and disposition.-
If you read my first threat, at the end you can see that i'm aware about the qualities of Rocky Mountain.-

I'll stick up for Cannondale!

I've been riding Cannondales since my first M400 in 1991 and I have found their service and support to be second to none through four bike upgrades to my current 2001 Jekyll 700.

I love the Cannondales for the gorgeous frames and the simple, yet attractive paint schemes. I have never had a problem with aluminum being too stiff, but maybe that has to do with the fact that I'm a beefy sucker!

Anyway, Try our and test ride everything you can and you will find exactly what you are looking for eventually!

Fubar5 the issue is the advices that a welder could do about your requests, when you ask for a bike.-

FatBomber, i'm not a pofessional racer or an specialist, i never ride a full suspension cannondale, for that reason my opinion is only based on magazines articles and pictures. For me Cannondale put to much tubes in the frames, some times i ask myself if it necesary put those tubes, meanwhile others manufacturers with less material made very good things. The other point is the fork, i don't know why they put that HeadShox (i don't know if that's the name), or the Lefty. Why do they complicate the things?.-

I made a list for full suspension mtbs:

Specialized
Giant
Rocky Mountain
Titus
Kona

What does that mean? You said there are good and bad welders.




What about Santa Cruz's new VPP XC bike? Or Cannondales Scalpel?

With the exception of Titus, the vast majority of these brands' products -- with the exception of maybe the very top of the line bikes -- are made in the same plants, if not the very same singtle plant, in Taiwan. The build quiality is therefore the same.

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Fubar i mean: they are bike welders

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Velocipedio, i don't think that the products from the same manufacturer have the same quality: The geometry is not the same, the suspension system is not the same, the material is not the same... and perhaps the companies in USA have quality controls, perhaps different quality controls.-

If you have any information about that manufacturer in Taiwan please let me know it. I will be very thankful in know more about it.-

I don't put Santa Cruz in the list because i don't have data about its new bikes. I don't know if they are still using a high pivot system, and if they made innovations in the geometry. (i couldn't enter in its web site).-

1. I still don't get what you are getting at. Custom frame builders don't become custom frame builders unless they are top notch at welding, and top notch at making a bike exactly like the customer ordered it, that is why they are custom frame builders and can charge sky high prices.

2. Who cares is Santa Cruz still uses single pivot designs. Santa Cruz build the best single pivot suspension bikes available. I had the chance to ride on of my friends Superlight(single pivot) and I sprinted out of the saddle with choppy strokes, and I climbed with choppy strokes, and any bobbing there was wasn't enought to worry about. Plus single pivot designs are lower maintenance.

Amigo, as recently as two years ago, both Specialized and Schwinn were having the vast majority of their aluminum frames built for them by Giant Bicycles Co. of Taiwan. In addition to its own brand, Giant does contract manufacturing for most of the big names. In fact about a third of it manufacturing capacity is devoted to OEM production and that third represents almost the same volume as all of the LBS-quality bikes sold in the US. [Giant is that big.] I don't have any newer information, though I suppose if I paged through some recent copies of Bicycle Retailer, I might find something more up to date. In any event, I find it highly unlikely that the situation has changed much.

The bottom line is that Brand is pretty meaningless in terms of comparing bicycle quality. Are Scwinns better quality bikes than Specialized, or vice versa? Hell, tney're the same quality because they're made by the same people in the same place. The same thing applies to components. Is a Specialized crankset better than a Sugino crankset? Of course not! The Specialized crankset is made by Sugino.

You hjave to get beyond the idea of ranking the relative quality of brands, unless you're talking about the kind of things that the brands actually do -- like design, technical support, customer relations, warranty, supply and delivery. They have little to do with actual manufacturing.

Now this only applies to the big brands like Specialized, Trek, etc. Small companies still do much of their own manufactiuring.

Compare differences: different frame materials, the relative merits of different designs, different geometries. And remember that it's rarely a question of best or worst, but what's best for you?

IMO you can't even classify suspension design as being better. Every design floats someones boat. Take a Fisher Joshua, it got one chanring in Bicycling last year. But Joe has a Joshua and he likes it.

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Velocipedio, thank you very much for the information, Jhon E mentioned that before but without details.-

Yes, that's what i'm doing, i'm comparing differences.-

If you think the best bike for you is a bike whithout wheels, or whithout handlebar... well, yes, is the best bike for you. But it is not the best bike.-


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Fubar5, the last news i have from Santa Cruz came from the first months of 2000, i mean that i don't know how is Santa Cruz now. Yes, Santa Cruz was one of my favorite bike brands.-
I think the four linkage system is best than the others. But is imposible classify a bike only by its suspension system.-

Amigo, why don't you explain to us just how a bike can be the BEST? If the best bike for me is a bike without wheels, then the best bike isn't the best bike in my book. Are you trying to make a list for yourself? For you own needs? Or are you trying to sum up the bike industry with this "best bike manufacturer" list?

I agree. There is no "best bike" as all bikes are subject to the opinion of riders and their substantial whimsy.

The perfect bike dosen't exist, but you can find a bike that approach to the perfect bike, That's the idea.-

Three principals things you want have in your bike: Stability, durability and low weight.-

Stability: You don't want fall down, you want a bike that give you the control to maneuver in all types of soils. (For example: That's one of the mains reasons why were developed full suspension bikes).-

Durability: You want a bike that resist the hits without dents and splits. (For example: That's the reason why alloys are more used than pure materials).-

Low weightFor example: that's one of the reasons why aluminium is more used than steel).-

The perfect bike would be that with 100% stability, 100% durability and 100% light. But this is impossible, then you need find the best combination of the three.-

Now, for me (ˇFor me!) in the full suspension mountain bike, the bikes approached to the perfect bike are the Specialized, because give you very good stability (4-bars linkage), and a good top tube length, not so long, not so short (they offer differents larges). They are working with M4 an alloy of sillicon, copper, magnesium, and vanadium (i'm looking for more information). All in a good not too heavy package.-

First off let me assure you that there is nothing wrong at all with Taiwanese made frames and the Taiwanese have been producing bike frames for many years, plus also producing frames for many overseas companies as well without a doubt. Lets look at some brands like Specialized whom are American and Avanti whom are from New Zealand, but tell me where their bike are made Taiwan. Oh yes and also Trek, this is a purely US company but beleive me I've seen Trek bikes made in Taiwan, and who rides a Trek, well you guessed it Lance the man himself, though I do beleive that there are still some Treks made in the US, but I can rest assure that this will all soon shift later to Taiwan.

Companies and businesses are very touchy about their profits on what they make and what final profit they make at the end of the year or so on, really speaking they are not going to give a damn about you winning the Tour De France etc etc, but would rather see their profit margins rise by the end of the year.

Even if a company like Cannondale who claims that their bikes are still all handmade in the USA, wore lets say starting to a slump or drop in their annual profit margins, due to manufacturing costs, labour costs etc etc etc, I can rest assure that their manufacturing facility will shift to Taiwan. Nothing wrong with this just they will save heaps more money a year.

So the question arises why should Trek or some other US, European or what ever country pay someone $50,000 a year to make their frames and welding etc etc, when they can get a Taiwanese or Taiwan to do it at half the cost, and the job can be done just as good if not better. Also we have to realise that Taiwan is a very well developing country and they have alot of expertise at bike manufacturing, and also talk about technology who are the biggest manufacturers of computers components and motherboards in the world, the Taiwanese.

And finally when you come to think of it, it's really the frame that is manufactured there, all the rest of the components like groupset, seat, wheels etc etc are made by other overseas companies.

I once asked a friend of mine this question, what is faster a Ferrari or a Subaru WRX, he said a Ferrari, I asked him again if not another 3 times, he still insisted on Ferrari. Then I said to him, ok you get your Ferrari and I will get the Subaru WRX and we will both place them on a rally track and lets see then who will be faster, well I know the Ferrari will not last, why because it's a purely road sports car.

Coming back to bikes, we really can't judge and say that one manufacturer is better than the other, they all have to compete against each other. And also if people can criticize Taiwanese made bikes, why is it that alot of the Taiwanese bikes have won many racers, like one the Italian teams or rider who rides a Specialized.

When it comes to the end of the day, you have to place your backside on that saddle and peddle the thing, and always remember that.