Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > General Cycling Discussion
Reload this Page >

What does Physics prove ?

Search
Notices
General Cycling Discussion Have a cycling related question or comment that doesn't fit in one of the other specialty forums? Drop on in and post in here! When possible, please select the forum above that most fits your post!

What does Physics prove ?

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 12-01-11 | 03:20 PM
  #26  
Banned
 
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 9,923
Likes: 1,066
From: Lincoln Ne

Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II

In reality the difference probably comes down to a knats hind leg sand papered on both sides.
rydabent is offline  
Reply
Old 12-01-11 | 04:04 PM
  #27  
AndreyT's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Anniversary
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 696
Likes: 126
From: CA
Originally Posted by Mark Kelly
Air resistance increases as the square of speed. That's a second order linear relationship, not an exponential one.
Strictly speaking, air drag increases linearly with speed as long as the air flow remains laminar. As the speed increases, the flow eventually detaches and becomes turbulent, and the air drag becomes proportional to the square of speed. In real life it is usually somewhere in between, and for faster speeds it moves closer to v^2.

For every car, for example, there's a more-or-less well defined threshold speed, over which the turbulent component starts to dominate (the exact value depends on the aerodynamic properties of a specific car). Under that threshold the car's fuel consumption (MPG) depends very little on the actual speed. Over that threshold, as v^2 component begins to become more prominent, the car's MPG is dropping noticeably as the speed increases. It is often assumed that the threshold value is 55 mph, while in reality the number makes little sense, since for each car model it is different (sometimes significantly).

A typical bike with a cyclist on it is not a very efficient aerodynamic shape, so it is not a surprise that the relationship will largely depend on v^2 even for low speeds. A trailer can be built in a much more efficient aerodynamic shape, thus extending the range of speeds in which the linear air resistance component dominates over the squared component. This is splitting hairs, of course, especially if the trailer is pulled by a bike (which immediately negates any aerodynamic benefits).

In any case, to call the relationship "exponential" (as previous poster did) is certainly a major error.

Last edited by AndreyT; 12-01-11 at 04:09 PM.
AndreyT is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 05:57 AM
  #28  
Mark Kelly's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 644
Likes: 1
From: Willy, VIC
Originally Posted by AndreyT
Strictly speaking, air drag increases linearly with speed as long as the air flow remains laminar. As the speed increases, the flow eventually detaches and becomes turbulent, and the air drag becomes proportional to the square of speed. In real life it is usually somewhere in between, and for faster speeds it moves closer to v^2.

<snip>
A typical bike with a cyclist on it is not a very efficient aerodynamic shape, so it is not a surprise that the relationship will largely depend on v^2 even for low speeds.
So basically, for bicycles, aerodynamic drag increases as the square of speed. Where have I read that before?
Mark Kelly is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 02:35 PM
  #29  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 3,741
Likes: 12
From: Gaseous Cloud around Uranus
Have fun "cipherin".....

where
FD is the force of drag, which is by definition the force component in the direction of the flow velocity,[1] ρ is the mass density of the fluid, [2] v is the velocity of the object relative to the fluid, A is the reference area, and CD is the drag coefficient — a dimensionless constant related to the object's geometry and taking into account both skin friction and form drag.

Short of having a wind tunnel and some way of measuring resistance(like a spring scale....LOL!)I'm not sure what good this will do.Your going to have a few problems coming up with some numbers.

Look mom...I have a wind tunnel and a spring scale.....I'm ready to do some math.....should I get panniers or a trailer....let's find out.....

Last edited by Booger1; 12-02-11 at 02:42 PM.
Booger1 is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 03:32 PM
  #30  
AndreyT's Avatar
Senior Member
10 Anniversary
 
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 696
Likes: 126
From: CA
If things were that simple...

Cd in the above formula can only be assumed constant under certain set of circumstances. In general though Cd is a function of so called "Reynolds number" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number_)

"At a low Reynolds number, the flow around the object does not transition to turbulent but remains laminar, even up to the point at which it separates from the surface of the object. At very low Reynolds numbers, without flow separation, the drag force is proportional to v instead of v^2; for a sphere this is known as Stokes law."
AndreyT is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 08:55 PM
  #31  
Senior Member
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,609
Likes: 507
From: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted by AndreyT
Cd in the above formula can only be assumed constant under certain set of circumstances. In general though Cd is a function of so called "Reynolds number" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_number_)
Have you bothered to consider the magnitude of Re at typical cycling speeds, and by how much Re and Cd change over the range at which an average cyclist rides?
asgelle is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 08:58 PM
  #32  
Senior Member
20 Anniversary
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,609
Likes: 507
From: Albuquerque, NM
Originally Posted by Booger1
Short of having a wind tunnel and some way of measuring resistance(like a spring scale....LOL!)I'm not sure what good this will do.Your going to have a few problems coming up with some numbers.
I guess you haven't beed following what people have been doing with power meters (do a search on Coggan & regression or Chung method). It's possible to measure CdA with high levels of accuracy and precision; better than the power meters themselves.
asgelle is offline  
Reply
Old 12-02-11 | 09:01 PM
  #33  
009jim's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,289
Likes: 3
From: Australia

Bikes: Giant CRX3, Trek 7100

Originally Posted by wphamilton
Same weight, the difference in rolling resistance will be trivial. If any, because the rolling resistance is proportional to weight (and speed) so while more wheels can give more resistance each of those wheels has less resistance in proportion to the lesser weight on each. The mechanical losses in the extra sets of bearings is almost nothing.

At the speeds mentioned, 6-12 mph, air resistance is not significant enough to be concerned about any delta. So the power requirements will be very close either way.

Handling and balance may be affected, which may make the rider less efficient on one setup or the other. My "physics" guess is that this is where the only real difference in wattage is found. Unless you want to consider higher speeds.
This guy answered best.
009jim is offline  
Reply
Old 12-03-11 | 07:24 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 392
Likes: 0
From: Orlando, FL

Bikes: Trek SU100, Surly Cross Check

A third wheel is that much more weight to expend energy in order to accelerate it rotationally.
itsthewoo is offline  
Reply
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
NeoY2k
Framebuilders
4
09-03-18 01:34 PM
TourUSt
Touring
15
06-10-15 02:17 PM
nashbartourer
Touring
10
03-13-14 03:59 PM
gregw
Touring
15
11-01-13 06:24 AM
rnorris
Touring
32
01-11-10 12:23 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2026 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.