*whoosh*

that was the sound of South Fulcrum's comment flying over the head of Avalance325.

for me, when i was trying very hard to be vegan, it was about my health. i failed miserably at it because i like cheese too much.

however, i also researched some of the ethical reasons that people give. one of them that stuck out and still makes the most sense to me (vegetarian), was environmental sustainability. it takes way more land to keep a herd of cattle or pig than it does to grow vegetables, legumes, and fruits, all of which contain the vitamins and minerals necessary to live a healthy life, if ou watch what you eat. deforestation in south america is occuring to make room for cattle farming. the runoff from those cattle farms futher destroys the environment, and the methane produced by cows, pigs, and other ruminants lowers the air quality, and contributes (though not as much as cars, factories, and poewr plants) to ozone depletion.

for me, that is the number one best reason to not eat animals. as far as not killing animals because they're cute, and they feel; that is a perfectly valid reason as well. animals feel pain, and i believe it is wrong to exploit them for profit (which is what huge livestock farmers are doing).

now, if the situation was such that eveyone would have to raise their own livestock to get dairy products and meats, i think more people would adopt a veggie lifestyle, simply because it's expensive to keep livestock healthy, and it's hard enough to kill wild animals, that i think most people would give up after an hour or three of trying...unless their livesdepended on it...then they (including me) would probably starve.

fun fact: ben franklin was vegan, AND straight edge.

it is impossible for anyone living to refrain from harming any other living thing. the Janes in SE Asia attempt to do so. they wear masks so as not to inhale small airborne organisms and always sweep the ground in front of where they walk so they don't step on anything. their lives are very difficult and many die from malnutrition. (they usually try not to kill live plants also)

I'm not willing to go that far.
yeah, the production of just about any product does harm to animals. You can't live in this society without being complicit in harm to animals. Most vegans have come to terms with this. I stay in this society with the hopes that I can do work to reduce the harm it does to animals and the earth in general. This is work that I could not do, or would be less effective doing if I dropped out of society.

The point is that, although we can't completly stop it, we could do a hell of a lot better in terms of not harming animals. Without too large of a change in lifestyle, we could completly eliminate the factory-style use of animals.

As for honey, it is like milk, eggs, wool, lanolin, and artificial estrogen (the stuff used in birth control pills is produced using the urine from pregnant female horses). we have no right to harness these animals to take these things from them. (from the vegan point of view)

tim

this is a valid argument. One that I can't really argue due to my lifestyle.

but what really pisses me off is that I've heard many people use this argument as an excuse NOT to be vegitarian or vegan. They figure, synically, that since they can't completly stop killing things, they might as well not try at all. its just a freaking cop-out so they don't have to try.

tim

Any vegans out there want to give me their brooks saddle?

Personally I use a saddle made from puppy dog hide. But thats ok though, because I ate the puppy dog first and used his bones for jewlery.

Avalanche, South Fulcrum was jokingly referring to a Simpsons quote. (You mean you don't pocket mulch?!?)

Yea, you're right. That's not what I meant to say. More along the lines that, when the chips are down, a lot of insects and other animals which don't have very good public relations, i.e. cockroach, ant, wasp, rat, weevil, earwig, centipede, locust blah blah blah, tend to fall below the "animal threshold" or 'do not kill/exploit' radar of most people I know, vegans and animal rights activists included.

My bike doesn't consume animal products, so I guess it could be called a vegan .
Has run over a few dead squirrels though...

Come to think of it, my bike's all plastic, vinyl, rubber, metal etc. (barring a trace of dead dinosaur in the grease). Not a stitch of leather... though I can't say I planned it that way.

Well I've posted about this before but nobody would answer me...

Is it possible to construct a non-leather Brooks-type saddle made out of a thick, hard waxed cotton, Filson tin-cloth or canvas-type of material? A saddle that can be tensoined like a Brooks and would last as long as a leather one, but not be leather but some other kind of natural plant-based material?

Come on, people! Let's put our heads together! Surely somebody's got to come up with something.

Last summer I was helping harvest an organic corn field and witnessed three deer killed during the process. I am certain that most vegi harvests involve the death of at least some living creatures. In reality there is no way to escape killing other beings, unfortunately.

Agreed. For as little as I'm able to handle it sometimes, living => suffering. I figure it's my job as a sentient being to live my life in a such a manner so as to cause as little suffering as possible, and so as to relieve as much suffering as possible.

For me, that means mindfulness of what I consume and make use of, and that means starting with a vegetarian diet. Are plants living things? Yes, but I've got to eat something, and eating plants is about as cruelty-free as I can get.

Regarding animal products, I tend to split along the lines that define kashrut; that is, if it's freely given and doesn't hurt the animal to give it (wool, milk, honey, etc.) then I have no problem respectfully making use of that product, provided it was grown or harvested in a respectful and humane manner.

However, if it's something that's not freely given (a big juicy t-bone, f'rinstance) then I don't use it unless I'm personally accountable for its taking. That is, I'll eat a fish if I catch the fish, and I'll ride a Brooks after I raise and process a beef and send the leather to Brooks for final shaping.

(And as for those leather boots and that belt I bought years ago? I'll use them until I can't any more, then find an environmentally- and socially-responsible non-animal replacement.)

Easy? Not really.
Mindful? Yeah.
Do I mess up sometimes? Sure.
How do I handle that? As gracefully as I can.

--October (Vegetarian, drifting toward vegan, and very concerned with these sorts of issues over the last few days, for unrelated reasons)

[Edit: And don't even get me started on the topic of trying to find dressy non-leather shoes that don't look like either superchunky Doc Martens or hemp-o-matic sneaks. What a mess...]

Once again, I have to wonder why people are so threatened by the vegan lifestyle. Seriously, meat eaters, when is the last time a vegan condemned you for your eating habits? Probably never, eh? When is the last time, as a cyclist, you admonished someone for their excessive driving? Probably more recently than your last conversation with a vegan.

Hey, plants are living beings too! They feel and communicate and feed, like animals do. So it's not ok to kill animals for food or by-products, but it is ok to kill plants? Says who? Ask any biologist, they'll tell ya: ALL life lives by consuming other living things.

I think cutting down a 200 year old oak tree is far worse than killing and eating and a deer. Like someone on this list already said, lifestyles need only be explained to ourselves.

It is from the Simpsons. It's a joke to point out the absurdity and the self-righteousness of a lot of vegans out there.

Tim, since I know you're a nice guy, I just want to make a little something clear. I don't eat meat but I do have a Brooks. Now that I have a Brooks, I'm not going to say the hell with this whole not eating meat thing and go have a burger. You sound like you're making an argument like the Bush administration's "You're either for us or against us." I know that is not how you feel/think. I just wanted to clear that up.

See you Sunday.

I in no way believe the with us or against us rationalle. I said in some previous post that no one is really completly vegan. We all kill things simply by existing. I was just carrying the logic out to its full concequences. The statement was not intended for people who have actually put thought into the subject. it was intended for those who use logic like that as an excuse not to be concious about their habits of consumption.

I still wear leather dress shoes when I teach, I wear a leather belt every day (these were bought before I became vegitarian), and I eat honey buns out of vending machines (no eggs or dairy, just honey and refined sugar. I eat them b/c they are the only thing I have access to at school that is even remotely vegan).

I guess I've come across sounding a little self reightous. I'm in no way a perfect vegan, but I'm working on it. its just the people who don't care and refuse to care even when presented with solid arguments that piss me off.

tim

yeah, sunday's gonna rock by the way.

it's interesting, really, this concern over labels.

i call myself vegan, sure, but i also know that there are things that i do that would cause other, presumably better vegans to disqualify me.

oh well.

"at least i'm effing trying. what the eff have you done?"

and to avoid confusion, this last bit is a minor threat quote used for my own sarcastic and faux-self-righteous purposes. the moral? TRY.

I am a vegetarian, not strict enough to call myself a vegan, and I would not buy a new leather seat. Now, I would use a old one untill it was worn out. The same way I am still wearing my old leather belts and shoes. I see no reason to throw them out untill they are worn out.

Stop the exploitation of cockroaches!

I want to ask forgiveness from everyone for not having seen every episode of The Simpsons.

That one did go whooooosh right over my head. I have heard and seen things that are that crazy though. I had a vegitarian tell me how wrong it was to kill animals for food. He was wearing leather shoes and a leather belt while he has doing this.

I saw a bunch of anti-oil activists in a parade. They were riding bicycles with plastic saddles, rubber tires, inner tubes, bearing grease, paint, chain lube, and other plastic parts. They were all also wearing rubber soled tennis shoes.

I personally have never eaten a 200 year old tree...

I consider a vegetarian lifestyle as one that focuses on eating as low on the food chain as possible. For example, it takes 16 lbs of grain to produce 1 lb of beef. If one prefers beef, that's fine, but one cannot say that a meat based diet has the same or less impact on the earth as a plant based diet does. It is like trying to argue that bikes have the same affect on air pollution as do cars. If one likes their car, great, but don't tell me that riding my bike to work is a waste of time.

For any that care, this company carries some pretty good non-leather shoes & belts:

https://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/

TimArchy,

would you consider using an old Brooks saddle?
I mean no disrespect, sarcasm etc. in asking. I'm just
trying to educate myself as to whats ok and what's not ok
to different vegans.

Marty

As a occasional leather wearing vegetarian, I would like to dispute the contradiction of being a veggie and a leather wearer. I have always said that the day someone can prove to me that cattle are killed for their hides, I will stop wearing leather. It reminds me of a co-worker that tells me stories of deer hunting where her and her husband bring home a deer and after skinning and gutting the animal they keep only the meat and dump the rest in a dumpster. Trophy hunting bothers me, subsistance hunting does not. If you're going to kill it, use it, all of it. And thus, in the spirit of using it, I shall continue to wear leather.