People here (in the touring forum) like the Raleigh Sojourn (that doesn't mean it's the bike for everybody).

It appears that the real bikes Walmart sells are overstock (that is, bikes they can get cheap and don't usually sell). It appears that the bike mentioned here is a 2011 Raleigh Sojourn (the 2012 is spec'd differently).

If people know what they are doing/looking-for, this might be an odd/exceptional good deal but that doesn't mean that it makes sense to generally buy bikes from Walmart.

Who knows what is going on in the mind of Walmart. Without evidence that this is nothing more than an exception, I wouldn't read too much into it.

I have see cases where Walmart sells bikes on-line that appear to be close outs.

Unlikely. There doesn't to be any consistency in the "real" bikes that Walmart sells.

So how is that any different from WalMart choosing not to provide service for the bicycles that they sell?

The customer gets to make their choice - WalMart prices with no service or bike shop prices with service. How could that be raciest, biggoted, elitist, classist or any other -est?

There's another level of freedom involved in this topic too. Raleigh gets to choose to sell to both bike shops and big box stores. Specialized and Trek have made the decision to bet their corporations on the local bike shops.

Digital Cowboy basically agrees with you.

(Walmart is free to do what they want. And people are free to criticize what they do.)

The part I found interesting is that on the Raleigh USA site the FAQ states they only sell through authorized dealers. Couldn't find anything about that on the Raleigh Canada site. So does Raleigh know that WalMart got some of their bikes and is selling them?

Hey! Keep it down out there. I can hear you from all the way over here. Especially you, Digital_Cowboy, with your big mouth! Shhhh! Quiet already!!!

Of course! Raleigh has authorized Walmart.ca, as a kinda dealer of sorts...

Then I'm curious why Walmart Canada isn't listed on Raleigh's web site as a dealer of their products?

https://www.raleigh-canada.ca/dealerlist.html#on-e

I'm going to guess that Walmart didn't steal the bikes.

Either they got the bikes from Raleigh or some third party selling off overstock. If there any sort of "failure", it's not Walmart's.

If this is the only Raleigh Walmart is selling, that doesn't say much for them being a Raleigh dealership.

Meh.

For what it's worth, I was blessed to have what I would consider to be a strong work ethic taught to me when I was young(er). So, even at my minimum wage jobs in high school, I took pride in doing things correctly.
I see your point though.

Presumably, the "bonehead" part didn't apply to you (that is he wasn't just talking about "minimum wage")!

Oh, I took no offense. "Big Box Store Assocciate Roulette" is not my favorite game by any means. It sure is a nice surprise to get someone who gives a crap once in a while though.

That was clear.

If you have to get a bike by mail order, call up MEC, I believe they will ship you a boxed bike. The nearest equivilant would be a Cote or National, one is steel with cantis, the other is Aluminum with BB7s. Even better if you can go to a store. If you particularly want a Raleigh, you should be able to find one in an LBS, or find one that will order in. The US raleighs are pretty nice, was just reading a review of the Roper that was pretty sweet.

Raleigh has most probably restricted the Canadian Walmart's sale of its bicycles to the online outlet only. This would have been done out of fear that the Raleigh name would be further compromised, if found to be too closely associated with Walmart's lower end stereotypical image.

Example

You don't want your McCoy family to know that you genuinely have romantic feelings for one of the Hatfield girls. You therefore, have it secretly prearranged that you'll meet her at the Hatfield's grain silo, situated just on the edge of their property line, every Tuesday and Thursday night at 10pm.

If the arrangement works out, you'll get married and your legal union might improve things. OTOH, it might intensify your mutual hatred and disgust. If the arrangement doesn't work, then you'll just return to your original status, unscathed by the failed arrangement, and still warring.

Fascinating.

"Minimum wage boneheads" -- WM doesn't pay minimum wage, they ARE a little above it (but not much to start). Bonehead -- sure, just like everybody else. I've met bonehead salespeople at MACY'S.

Wally IS supposed to stand behind the BSO's they sell -- for 90 days' normal wear and tear. The trouble comes in when someone buys a Mongoose FS MTB BSO and jumps it on a rocky/rooty trail. EVERY bike of that type that WM sells has the sticker:

"This bike is not intended for off-road riding or for stunting"

You taco a wheel on an XR-200, or bend a fork, because you want to hop & drop on the trail, go ahead; just don't bring it back to me wanting a new one.

I had one last fall; it was a guy returning (or TRYING to) a 16" Mongoose training-wheel bike. It was 4 YEARS OLD, and just now got its first flat tire. FOOL WANTED TO RETURN IT. He ended up buying a new 16" tube and taking the sh** home.

Because of my time with them, WM pays me pretty well, and I know my stuff, better than anyone in WM can expect. (The training for the job consists of a 25-minute video and a 15-page catalog of procedures.) Work with me, use some sense, and you'll get LBS-level service. Step with an attitude, and you'll be talking to my manager, who can't fix sh**. I CAN'T work at the LBS, because I can't take a $3/hr pay cut. So I work for Wally, build and fix crap, and pay my mortgage.

Guys like Burton and gpsblake amuse me; guys -- "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing" is the oft-misquoted truism (can't recall the complete saying right now), but totally accurate here. You guys think you can compare quality? The first week of March, my co-worker and I had 5 bikes un-repairable OUT OF THE BOX. We don't go for "Lance Armstrong Mister Millimeter" precision, we get 'em as safe as they can get, and as rideable as they can get. NONE of them meet my standards, and never will. An LBS bike, RIGHTFULLY, should be as close to perfect as humanly possible. The parts pick is good enough, the manufacturing standards are good enough... it should be like that. Hell, my personal bike is!

After building/repairing 25,000 of these turd-like things, I'll be glad to educate folks about 'em; I know them better than most folks know their mirror reflection. But if you wanna step to me like, "a bike is a bike, shop just costs more, and you're fulla sh**", well, learn the hard way.

Ah! Great! Glad you're here, DX-Man!

So can you be more specific about what's so bad about Walgooses and what is so different about them that makes them so unrepairable?

A few of us are having difficulty wrapping our minds around the concept that the typical Walgoose is so vastly different from a low end bicycle that you might find in the LBS. It's our belief, that the Walgoose frames are overbuilt (just like many LBS aluminum frames) and that their components are of lower quality. If you're unlucky, your Walgoose just may have been built by one the thickest of "boneheads".

Just what is so mechanically misgiven here that sets a Walgoose so many tiers below the average bicycle?

I thank you most respectfully in advance,

- Slim

That's one possible analysis. I was thinking that WalMart maybe doesn't want to take up floor space with a bike that likely won't turn over very fast.

It could very well be by mutual consent that this arrangement was considered best, for those two separate and exclusive reasons.

The other issue is Helmart's ability to drive down the quality of anything they sell. And, because they are such a big player in all markets, pushing down that quality affects all other mass markets. Try to find good jeans or try finding high quality socks that last more than a few washing cycles. It's tough to do because Helmart wants everything provided to them at the cheapest possible price. Companies that make stuff for Helmart make a deal with the Devil. Ask many of the destroyed companies left in Helmart's wake.

I'm seeing new prices on the Sojourn of around $1200 at LBSs for the 2012 Sojourn. Not such a great deal, especially if this is a closeout. Even the 2009 Sojourn reviewed by Adventure Cycle has an MSRP of $1200

The Sojourn also has smooth tires, rather narrow tires, and drop bars. It may not be a road race bike but, like almost touring bikes, it is more road bike than anything else.

This Rock Lobster road bike has fenders,


isn't it a road bike?

This Volagi has disc brakes,



isn't it a road bike?

This Dean has a Brooks saddle and a Topeak pump (close to the Lenz)



I assure you that it's a road bike.

At what point does the Sojourn, which has all the above elements combined on one frame become something other than a road bike

Your definition is too narrow. Tour de France bicycles weighed between 18 and 24 lbs from 1968 to 1998 which would put them in the category of entry level road bikes today and only a few pounds shy of the Sojourn's ample girth. A modern, i.e. 2012, Jamis Ventura weighs in at a portly 22 lbs. That's 2 pounds less than the world class race bike that won the 1965 tour and about the same weight as the Pinarello that Miguel Indurain rode in 1993. It's about 2 pounds less than the Pinarello that Jan Ullrich rode in 1997.

And I'm pretty sure that the 1965 bike didn't have STI and it may even have had a leather saddle on it. It's still a road bike, even by today's standards...just like the Sojourn. Just because it has a few more spokes and some extra geegaws hanging off the frame, doesn't mean that it's not a road bike. It's certainly not a mountain bike, now is it?

Classic Cyccommute commentary...Always makes you think!

Doesn't seem like much of a deal to me either, on the surface, anyways. Many things are more expensive in Canada than here, however.
I'm really going off of manufacturers and marketeers' definitions, not my own. I'm happy to do my best to pigeon hole to the best of my abilities.

I'm also perfectly happy simplifying things by leaving "road" out of it, let's just call it a bicycle

Seriously though, once chainstays get that long, I think you might as well call it a touring/commuter bike if you're talking to anyone that knows about bikes and you wish to describe that bike to them.

Rock Lobster comes close to being in the same class with the Sojourn. The other two? Nun-uh! Probably can't even cram 28mm tires in there! Dean Randonneur or Touring softtail would make better comparison models from that maker, IMO.

Technically speaking, the Sojoun is called, a "touring" road bicycle. The term "road bike" was originally intended for racing bicycles, as there were no distinct categories for bicycles back in the day when bicycles were first evolving. It's only in retrospect that we've decided to establish real names for categories, as bicycles continue to morph and evolve into different subspecies. According to Wikipedia, even the hybrid is a type of road bike, as well. Also according to Wikipedia, any bicycle designed primarily for paved road travel, falls under the "road bike" category. Therefore, by Wikipedia standards, the term "road bike", is a very general and broad term.

- Slim

Reference:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Road_bicycle

You'd have to ask SR. As I and a lot of others here feel that the LBS has every right to decide for themselves which bikes they will work on and which bikes they won't work on.

And the question as has been asked in other threads, does doing so water down the brand name?

As I think that you do.