Dude! You are incredibly far ahead of "most of us" when it comes to wheel appreciation. A guy who builds his own wheels is in an excellent position to distinguish a marginal wheel from a good or excellent one. You understand some things that few people do. That's why bike makers can sell bikes with dubious wheels on them. :D

But I don't charge myself by the hour when I build.

Joking aside, I'll tell ya, learning to build and building my wheels might be the most valuable time I've spent when it comes to enjoying my bikes. It got to the point where I had to start stripping down wheels built by pros at the LBS then rebuilding them myself. Breaking point was after a handbuilt wheel failed after 40 miles. I could squeeze the spokes nearly touching one another. I took the wheel back to the shop and the pro builder said, "it's supposed to be that way. bring it back after 300 miles and I'll true it" I gave him a piece of my mind said screw you, I can do a better job myself!

I invested in a few inexpensive tools and did it myself. I completely tore it apart, relaced it, built it and that was my wheel that gave me 20,000+ miles.

40 miles vs 20,000? I'd have to say my time was pretty valuable!


I do understand what the OP is talking about though. 2 of my last bike purchases never made it to the first ride with stock wheels. I had wheels built for them before the purchases. The stock rims were either tossed or given away knowing they would be nothing but a hassle.

If you ever get a chance to build your own wheels, do it. It's fun and less expensive in the long run!

Wheels I have built:

I built all of these front and rear

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/032812B.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...eme/Lemond.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/111010C.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...0Ride/bike.jpg

The rear on Gina's bike

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/GGbike2.jpg

Had to tear down, replace a few spokes and rebuild the rear on the tandem after a shoddy build by a "PRO".

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/090311A.jpg

and I just built this one a couple weeks ago

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8187/8...31ba61ecee.jpg
IMG_4076 by gulpxtreme, on Flickr

Mr Beanz you have my respect for taking the initiative to not settle for less than you want. But I think that we both agree that the effort you put into those wheels was 'value added' even if you didn't charge yourself.

Point being - if you were asked to build a 100 wheels like that for someone else - you'd have no problem asigning a dollar value to it and so realistically leaving out that part is a little misleading.

I do a little custom building myself. My opinion? It's as expensive as @$&#! If there was any alternative I'd rather just buy some of this stuff but exactly what I want is often just not on the market. :(

The frame affects handling and ride. Wheels affect ride to some degree (tires a lot more) but wheels also affect performance - very light wheels make climbing and sprinting quicker and and aero wheels makes you go faster. Frames don't do that.

It seems expensive at first but in the long run it pays for itself. The gold wheels on the Lemond were stock wheels that came on a bike back in 98. Ultegra 600 hubs, smooth rolling hubs. The shop fiddled withthem for a fe months and could nver get hem to stay true for more than 2 weeks. So I removed them, hung them in the closet for 8 years. I offered them to local forum mebers that might be interested in the hubs free of charge just to get them used. Nobody wanted them so there they hung.

After I build my first wheel I wondered about those that never kept true. $20 in spokes and I tore them apart and rebuilt them (same spokes front, figured it was the build and tension that sucked). They were flawless for 10,000 miles. My frame broke so I gave them to a ride partner that had some very annoying wheels. I could afford to give him the wheels just to get rid of that annoying noise his bike made whiel riding with us, like someone constantly playing maracas!.:D

Other wheels I have re used hubs. I bought one 9 speed Ultegra hub for $50. After the rim wore out (20,000 miles) I bought another rim on sale $60, used the same hub and $20 for spokes. That's like a new handbuilt Ultegra wheel for $80-$90!

The pic I posted earlier of the new hubs form Ribbledotcom, $136 for front and rear Ultegra hubs. The front alone in a shop or elsewhere online is $74 only for the front hub ONLY! So the newly built wheel pictured sitting on the couch only cost me about $180 to build. That's cheap vs a shop and many online prices! A shop would have charged me $100 for the rim, $35 for spokes, $130 for the hub and $65 for the build.

That's $320+ vs the $180 I spent :thumb:

So when it comes down to it, I save a lot of money. I paid $30 for my truing stand, $10 for a spoke wrench, $20 for a dishing tool and borrow my buddy's tension meter. I asked to order one thru his shop, he told me no, I could borrow his any time. :)

Heck, after it pays for itself, I can afford to give away wheels. Those are the wheels that were on my Lemond before the frame broke. It was worth it to get rid of that nasty noise!:p

He did give me the hubs from his rims so if I ever need and emergency cheap build......

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...psdff9d896.jpg

My low end Allez has Aksiums. The wheels cost half the price of the entire bike. Completely worth it. (In fact, ti's my third set of those same wheels due to various incidents etc).

EDIT:

Having said that, I recently bought a supersix which also has Askium wheels. And I've had a change of heart... the frame makes a huge difference, as do the wheels. The S6 with Aksiums on 23mm 120psi tires, rolls SMOOTHER than Allez with Aksiums on 25mm 100psi tires. I would never have believed it until I tried it for myself.

EDIT 2:
I've always fancied learning how to build wheels, and after reading Mr Beanz's post, and my desire to have a goal for 2013, maybe wheel building is it.

The frame does make a difference. I had a tripe Lemond Tourmalet aluminum and have a Cannondale CAD3 with a standard double (53/39 crank-12/25 cassette). I did a century with 10,000 ft of climbing and another with 12,000 ft, guess which bike I picked for the events? Not the triple. I chose the double cause the frame is much stiffer and more responsive. It climbs and sprints much better too using the same rims and tires. ;)


Man, I got pictures for everything! :roflmao2:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...b7be410168.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...xtreme/ba6.jpg

CAD3

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/111010C.jpg

I think we have completely different concepts of 'expensive' and why this thread was started. Personally I believe time is money, and consider anything that I have to spend a lot of time researching, compiling obscure parts for, building and modifing 'expensive'. Compared to a mass produced off the shelf item its not cost effective - problem is, for me, in most cases what I want isn't available. Since I have access to a bike shop anyway - neither tools nor part prices represent an obstacle, but having to build wheels does get in the way of something else I could be doing.

You, on the other hand, seem to have lots of free time and prefer to use that instead of your bank account. That doesn't make the item 'no cost'. But if you think it does - I'm sure there are lots of people on this forum that would be happy to have you build wheels for them on a 'no cost' basis.

I also expected a little rationale. The wheelset on a $500 bike isn't the same as the wheelset on a $5,000 bike and neither is the frame. But in both cases - the wheelset is well underspeced relative to the frame.

You apparently want to take this in an entirely different direction for some reason. Nothing you're riding on has stock wheels. Why do you want to insist thats somehow pertinent here - it really just confirms the post. And that I could understand.

I think what happens is after we have been at this cycling thing for a while we look at the weels on a new bike in two different ways. If we are going to get the bike for a great price we might overlook a stock set of Alex DC 19s or figure we can live with Shimano 550s till we can pop a set of our spare aftermarket wheels on it. If however we are "stuck" on a particular bike we will push for higher rated wheels than we did for our first bike. Nothing I have ever done has had a bigger impact on my bicycles than better wheels that the average stock wheels. I still have a stock front wheel in my shed from my first road bike after coming back to cycling five years ago. But I also have two sets of hand builts, on my bikes, and three sets of upgraded machine builts in the shed.

That being said my stock wheels on my old MTB worked fine on the street as long as I was using it as a utility bike. If I took it out cross country they need trueing once a month.

:thumb:

Do it! It's only added pleasure and satisfaction to the time I've spent enjoying cycling as a hobby :thumb:

Definitely disagree, no doubt.

I've seen cracked frames of all kinds easily 10/1 over broken wheel sets. Easily , probably more.

But I've only been in the cycle industry for only 20-25 years so what do I know. :)

While I do agree frames can and do fail, I have seen more wheels with issues than frames. Frames usually just carry on until failure, a wheel that won't stay in true, or keeps popping spokes is much more common than a frame failure in my experience, and to me counts as a failure of that particular wheel. I expect a set of my hand built wheels to survive a year of normal riding with minimal truing required during the annual tune up. So far I haven't been disappointed. FWIW I built my first wheels in 1974 and still build them today. I greatly enjoy the wide range of quality parts available today that weren't available back then.

Aaron :)

I use steel frames and have never had one that break. The weakest area of a steel frame is often where the seat tube attaches to the seat stays. If the wheel is properly tensioned (minimum 32 spokes), then it should handle most minor potholes. The tire has a much greater influence on handling than the rim/spokes/hub. Going from 19 mm to 24 mm wide rim will affect handling, mainly due to a rounder contact patch.

I've only been biking for 4 months and I already built myself a pair of wheels with no more than $350 in parts. It's not hard at all, all you need is a little bit of patience near the end to get the wheels true and tensioned. It came out to 1438g and riding on them feels quick and light. Of course I don't have much comparisons of riding expensive carbon bikes.

Self built wheels will always be better than purchased wheels ... because you don't have a deadline or a quota to meet! :p A little OCD and free time is all you need.

What hubs, spokes and rims did you use to build a 1438 wheelset?

Good question! Last year the shop here warranteed exactly 3 aluminum frames and 2 CF frames. On the other hand, we typically replaced broken spokes on wheels on a daily basis, and in some cases simply replaced complete wheels instead. Aside from broken spokes , broken axles were common, a couple bearing cups seperated and lots of cones and bearing balls needed replacing. Rim damage wasn't usually the primary reason for a new wheelset.

The only guy here that regularly does in frames is a world class downhiller, and he only goes through one swingarm a year.

Definately agree with the tire thing! And 25 is the smallest I run myself!

I can't tell whether we're comparing decent wheels (the kind that come stock on a typical $1500 bike) with WalMart-level junk, or if we are comparing the $1500-bike-wheels with four-figure "boutique" wheels.

If the former, then sure, there's a real difference. If the latter, then I'll need to see some numbers. I suspect that dropping a few grand on the latest carbon/ceramic/titanium wonder wheels results in plenty of perceived speed but not very much actual speed - the rich boys on my local club ride don't seem to be riding away from the rest of us when they trot out their latest mortgaged-the-house wheel bling.

When I started the post it was a general observation regarding the build quility of a frame being better than the build quality of the stock wheelset that new bikes come with - pretty much regardless of price. And since lots of people here seem to commute and prefer hybrids - I deliberately DIDN'T post it in the road bike forum.

I certainly agree you get a better wheelset on a $1,500 bike than you do on a $500 bike, and an even better one on a $9,000 bike. Just seems to me that a new wheelset is a real common upgrade. In fact I've NEVER heard anyone say "I'm OK with the wheels - I really need a better frame!"

Just haven't figured out if its 'room to grow' or simply because bikes are being marketed by framebuilders and not wheel manufacturers.

Thanks for the clarification.

I guess I'm still left with a question, though: what is "better"? Stronger, faster, more reliable, ...?

In my experience, good custom wheels can be stronger - but I've had custom wheels from very highly regarded builders that gave nothing but trouble, and I've had stock wheels from (I'm ashamed to admit) Performance that apparently are going to last forever.

Faster? I dunno. I doubt that a wheel built by hand from top-quality components is going to be any faster than a wheel built by machine with the same parts (assuming such a thing exists). I'm also completely unimpressed by things like ceramic bearings and carbon spokes. I've seen convincing evidence that those bits make zero on-road difference to times/speeds, and the only contrary evidence I've come across has been so obviously biased and/or unscientific as to be laughable.

And the "..." part? Sure. If folks want to drop big dollars on wheels because they think they look cool or the builder is a personal friend or because that's what was used to win the Tour last year, then more power to them, right?

Hubs - BHS (bikehubstore) hubs, SLF85W front, SL211 rear. Those apparently are Crazy Monkey clones upgraded with US made Enduro bearings
Spokes - 20F/24R setup with CX-rays because I'm lazy about untwisting spokes after I true them.
Rims - Kinlin 270 from fairwheelbikes. They had them on sale for $22.50 each. What a steal! Although now reading about 23mm wide rims just make my fingers itchy for another build.

I used brass nipples and slightly heavier front hub because I wanted more durability on my first build. You can probably get away below 1400g if you go will all super-light components. I set up the front to be radial while the rear is triplet laced with 1x NDS and 3.167x on the DS

Those hubs are a great deal. I have some that are laced to H+Son Archetypes, and they've been set-and-forget.

:lol: Actually I was kinda expecting to get the 'better' part from different posters. I figured that anyone that was still driving with their stock wheels would maybe say what they were and that they were happy with them. And figured cyclists that WEREN'T riding on their stock wheelset might share the reason they 'upgraded'. 'Better' seems to mean different things to different riders depending on their riding habits, but wheelsets are still THE most commonly 'upgraded part of the bike.

The wheelset I'm in the process of ordering parts for myself is because the bearings on the stock wheelset don't have treated races so life expectancy is 1/5 of what I've replaced them with. But thats still a bit of cash so I went for a build that can be installed on both a hybrid with disc brakes and a touring frame with rim brakes. So there's an axle mod in there too do I can use either an axle mounted derailleur or a hanger mounted derailleur. Can't drive both at once, but the wheels at least will get a lot of use.

I believe from your first post we have to realize that most entry level stock wheels are not made from the same quality parts as either aftermarket upgraded wheels or hand builts. I believe my Dura Ace 7801s were every bit as strong as my hand built Open Pros. They are not however as forgiving on bad pavement. They are not as forgiving if a spoke needs replacing. but at least they didn't require special brake pads. They have Scandium brake surfaces. However my first road bike came with Alex DC19s. At the time I was 45 pounds heavier than am now and I tend to mash my way up hills. :eek: Or I used to anyway. The spokes and rims would flex so bad that I would break a spoke about once a month. Lighter wheels spin up faster and most stock wheels weigh 2200 grams. First upgraded wheels more than likely will come in around 1800 grams and will be stiffer than stock wheels.

I hae been moving away from Shimano hubs because of Cup and cones. Yes they are easy to serivce but they take a fine touch to make smooth. (Yes I have a friend that will spend the time to get them adjusted just right but I am not one of those people. My last handbuilts have Hope Pro hubs and Dt swiss rims and spokes. I agree with you it means something different to almost everyone but when someone can't "Feel" the difference between cheep stock wheels and well built hand built of even machine built wheels there is nothing left to say to them. we get into debate mode mode because some are not interested with how much easier it is to spin up a lighter stiffer wheel. They aren't interested with sprinting up a hill or eliminating flex when standing up to sprint on a 7 percent hill. But to some even non racers the first time up a 3/4 hill that always kicked you tail with a lighter stiffer wheel will bring a smile to your face. If that smile cost 300-$1000.00 so be it. If you don't smile at the improvement the answer is simple, don't upgrade.:lol:

So apparently at least a couple people do think stock wheelsets are OK. I'll asume the people that stated that are still driving on theirs. Anyone else still driving on the wheelset/frame that originally came together?

"...most entry level stock wheels are not made from the same quality parts as either aftermarket upgraded wheels or hand builts." Well, okay. But in that case we're not really talking about the benefits of stock vs. custom, we're talking about the benefits of quality parts. Same with the idea of "spinning up a lighter stiffer wheel".

So maybe the short answer is that if your stock wheels are built with heavy and/or poor quality bits then upgrading makes sense, but if your stock wheels are made of top quality parts you can't really expect much benefit from customs.

Yes we might agree with that. What I have noticed is to keep a price point many if not all manufacturers seem to skemp on wheels. I am not sure you can ever make the assumption that the normal stock wheel is of high quality unless you know that parts that they came with. You might be able to count on a Mavic Aksium being pretty strong and holding up without a need for truing for a long time. But you will not get the same performance from from a Forte Titan rear wheel from Performance. The difference may only be $100.00 but unless you are 120 pounds you can tell the differnce from tha first day you switch wheels. And that to me was the point. Unless the stock wheel is a known quality wheel like a Ksyrium, or Easton or other better known wheel, you will have to upgrade from the stock wheel to get both lighter and stronger.

As far as what makes them better, that is subjective. With handbuilts you can get the wheel built to your riding style and needs. Stock wheels are built for the average person riding the average distance the average number of days a year. That is my experience anyway. You can buy quality machine wheels but typically unless you are paying a bit more at the store to start with you will get the minimum wheel set for the average person. Once again from what I have observed.

Depends on what you want them for. I bought a pair of wheels off craigslist from a guy who was "upgrading." They are 32h Weinmann DP18 on Tiagra hubs with straight gauge spokes. I"m sure they were machine built. He said they were his stock wheels and he had upgraded so he was selling them. Heavy as hell and not particularly true when got them, but I have taken the time to true and tension them. I thought I might use them as wheels for a CX project bike, but instead they've become my training wheels for my road bike. I expect to have many trouble free miles from them.

And when I put my carbon tubular race wheels on, the bike feels like a rocket. Train heavy, race light.

Well I think the bingo moment was you took the time. Nothing I could do to my DC 19s they simply wouldn't stay true. However I have had open pros with 105 hubs and using the build, detension, retension and do it one more time stay true for a year or more. My handbuilts with Dura Ace Hubs and Open pro hubs were built about 1996 and are still going strong. I did notice a slight bump by the valve stem the other day but the rims are about ready to be replaced anyway. But I still have a stock front wheel in my shed.