Wheels are under-rated
 

Wheels - your frame basicly just holds them apart, the steering points them in a given direction, and the drivetrain makes them go round. But wheels are the heart of any bicycle, and it continues to be a mystery to me why its so typical for manufacturers to put cheap wheels on even expensive bicycles.

Personally I'd rather have some high end wheels on a reasonable frame -IMO the average rider taxes the limits on their wheelset far more than their frameset.

I've picked up some Halo Spin Doctor hubs and plan on doing some axle mods before lacing them up. These have cartridge bearings and should be possible to replace with a ceramic hybrid.

Interesting. In my experience, the wheels make very little difference whereas the frame has a very large effect on handling and ride.

Yes, just swap out the same wheelset onto different frames for test riding. Brake pads and its holders may not match up with some bike setups. Bike shops unwillingness to do these extra steps means the rides are near meaningless.

…hmm, I'm not sure if I'd agree with that statement, Squire!!!!

http://wildavis.smugmug.com/Bikes/mi.../Wheels-X2.jpg

(Not one of mine, but thanks to whoever was responsible!

:rolleyes:

- Wil

What's wrong with those wheels?

http://momath.org/wp-content/gallery...y/gallery2.jpg

(this is the Museum of Math in NYC; I highly recommend it)

Might depend on what you're riding.

There's a selection of wheelsets offered against Argon 18 builds. Some of them are a few hundred dollars - some are a few thousand dollars. The average consumer may not fully use a 2 or 3 thousand dollar wheelset - but most can feel the difference between a $50 machine built wheel with a single wall rim and steel hub; and a wheelset that has been built with reasonable components.

The lack of performance in wheelsets shows up most commonly in broken axles and spokes. Broken frames are pretty rare in my experience.

LOL Thats what happens when you don't know the difference between a square root and a circumference!

So how about swapping out different wheelsets?

I beg to differ, my two taxed frames after 13,000 and 14,000 miles. My wheels outlasted both frames. :D


http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...eme/broke2.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...e/BrokenL2.jpg




I agree! The Lemond Chambery (alum/carbon mix) I was riding was a better ride than my full carbon Madone. Much better handling, and far more stable, especially at high speed descents 30-40 mph including switchbacks.



http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/081810Q.jpg

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...me/032812B.jpg

It might help if you posted some specifics about those wheels - as in make and model. Particularly since a number of posters in this forum seem to think 10,000 kms is a reasonable life expectancy for a rim.

If they're on the market for less than $200 I'd be very interested myself.

Well, they are Veloicity Deep V rims. I build my won so they are cheap to me in my case.

Only one rim to wear out so far of several I have built. 20,000+ miles, brake surface wore thin, replace for safety concerns.

-----------
rear wheel on the Madone

Deep V rim $60
Ultegra hub $50
spokes $20

front wheel Deep V rim $60
spokes $20
built on an old 600 hub I had in the closet from a past bike, great shape

The cost to me was about $210, it pays to build your own.

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I build my own so I look for sales like this. Front and rear Ultegra 10 speed hubs $136 shipped and save BIG!:thumb:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8363/8...aef8014a66.jpg
hubs by gulpxtreme, on Flickr

Not exactly what I was expecting.

If most bikes came stock with handbuilt wheels, Ultegra hubs, Velocity Deep V's and Wheelsmith or DT Swiss spokes - I wouldn't have started this thread. Instead most bike that cost under a $1,000 come with just enough of a wheel to get them out the door -a lot like car tires. You're actually just confirming the whole issue.

The only bike I ever bought that had that kind of wheelset was a Specialized Roubaix Ultegra Expert - it came stock with an Ultegra wheelset. The average rider in the commuting or hybrid forums doesn't buy a $3,500 bike. Most are looking below $600.

Cheaper bikes do tend to come with wheels which are not up to the job. This is where the manufacturers cut costs. However much trouble can be avoided if the wheels are properly and evenly tensioned and stressed/de-stressed before use. Even with bikes I've bought at around $2000 I found that the wheels required proper tensioning.

Absolutely nothing is wrong with those wheels. They are a perfect match for that particular roadway. Round wheels would make the ride too bumpy.

Your OP is not clear, "why it's so typical tobput cheap wheels on expensive bikes" is not the same as "new bikes come equipped with cheap wheels". If you had been clear, I wouldn't have wasted my time replying. ;)

Most of us can't distinguish between good wheels and wheels that are just OK for the time being. They're round. They roll. Sold.

:eek: Oh no! You wasted your time? I'd apologize but according to the cost estimate you posted against that wheelset you built - you think your time is worth nothing anyway. :lol:

OK - seriously - I edited the post to save anyone else any posibility of misinterpreting it:
It now reads But even before that little change - it shouldn't have given you an issue because no-one I know would consider what you're riding on 'cheap wheelsets'.

Agree completely - and spoke tensioning is something I'm very particular about on every bike I have the chance to prep myself. The other strategy I suggest is upgrading the wheelset BEFORE the bike leaves the store. That way the customer gets maximum credit against whats already on the bike, often including tires as well.

Not everyone wants or needs that, but it works out well for the ones that do.

If the wheels were spiked such that the spikes would fit snugly into the gaps in the road surface, they would be toothed wheels. But then what's the difference between a toothed wheel and a gear?

I'm cheap, what can I say? :D

I can tell the difference between my roval paves and my selfbuilt cxp33 hope hub wheels. I think. I should try with the same tires. The self built ones feel faster... I'm sure they are faster. i built them myself...

Wheels are an easy place to cut quality without most consumers being aware. I work in the industrial roofing trade and roof systems are the same way, as long as it isn't leaking it is out of sight out of mind, wheels; as long as they roll when new who cares? FWIW on all of my bikes the first thing I tackle is the wheels, I take them down and rebuild them. I may use the OEM components but having a properly built and tensioned wheel with medium grade components beats the best components with a mediocre build. I also don't try to run lightweight wheels on a bike built for utility use.

Aaron :)

So there you are. If Mr. Beanz self-built, medium grade component wheel meets or exceeds some high end wheelset, how can his time have been of no value.

So here are a few consequences as I've seen them:
(1) Cheap hubs: above a certain level, all Shimano hubs have bearing cups that are treated for durability. Low end hubs by all manufacturers don't and some even have simple stamped steel cups that are pressed in. Bearing races, cones and axles are relatively easy to service - changing out a hub can cost more than a cheap wheel is worth - hence ...... scrap metal. There are lots of $40 wheels offered as replacements - I'll only suggest those for scrappers that have a short life expectancy anyway.

(2) Cheap spokes: Galvanized spokes don't HAVE to be poor quality. In some respects plain steel is superior to SS in areas other than corossion resistance. But low grade spokes, plain or SS, will fail sooner and progressively. The first alignment resulting from broken spokes will cost the consumer more than any money saved by using lower grade spokes. The second is just the next installment on a wheelset you don't have.

(3) Improperly tensioned spokes: Leads to either progressive spoke failure (regardless of spoke quality) or rim failure resulting from spokes pulling through the rim. Neither has a cheap solution, completely negating any 'savings' passed to the consumer by cutting corners.

Haven't seen too many rim issues. What I've seen either get dinged through impacts (potholes or low tire pressure), worn through brake pad wear, or scrapped by poor spoke tensioning. Still lots of steel rims around from 40 years ago. Many fewer aluminum ones as they're more likely to get damaged by everything mentioned.

My suggestion is to know what you want, and insist on it - even if it costs extra. Businessmen aren't stupid. Consumers that insist on just shopping for price will usually discover that something was left out to meet that price point.

I think part of it is the fact that aftermarket wheels have become a burgeoning industry in their own right. I think many bike manufacturers view OEM wheels as "whatever's blingiest-for-the-least-cost-necessities" just to get the bike out the door, and then expect a lot of the buyers of expensive bikes to replace them soon anyway. The people who tend to drop big bucks on their bikes will usually have their own preferences when it comes to wheels. Kind of like pedals. 30 years ago all bikes came with them, regardless of price. Now almost none of the mid-to-high price bikes do because the buyer has so many intensely personal choices, that the bike manufacturer would almost certainly be wrong if they picked one, and would therefore be throwing money away.

If a bike could roll without wheels, I think sooner or later the bike makers would leave them off.

How could you ever sell a bike without wheels or, say, pedals?

Most bikes aimed at a market where riders use clipless pedals currently come with no pedals. The issue is that with a system like the Shimano SPD for example, the choice of pedal and shoe is interdependent. So not only is it impossible to predict which brand of pedals a customer will prefer - but which model as well. So shoes and pedals are sold seperately.

Argon 18 is taking a modular approach with their bikes, in that in Canada several different wheelsets are available to choose from. Each bike / wheelset combination is considered a seperate build kit and priced differently.

I think "Expensive" wheels are over rated.

I don't find wheels to be any more or less important than the other structural elements of the bike.

Cheap wheels suck , so do cheap frames and any other 'cheap' parts.

Very high end wheels are equally beyond the ability of 99% of the bike buying public (and this forum) as any other parts of the bike at the end of the spectrum.

The reason why they put the wheels they do on most production bikes? Because they work just fine. This is different from a company having poor quality control whether it be wheels or drive train or whatever. Mechanical parts on most bikes fail more often due to poor QC during manufacture and assembly than 'cheap' parts simply failing. These are 2 different issues IMO. A well built/assembled entry level wheel will easily suit the vast majority of the buying and riding public no problem.

"IMO" :)

Think we'll have to disagree on that one.

The biggest difference between high tensile steel frames, cromoly frames, aluminum frames and carbon fiber frames is WEIGHT. Structurally they are all strong enough to do the job, and as passive structures with no moving parts, don't have the same durability issues as something like a wheelset or bottombracket.