Spinning experts: Need info
 

I'm wondering about spinning technique. I know the advantages, but don't know if I'm really doing it right and perhaps that is holding me back from better speed.

I did 1000 miles where I just focused on upping my rpm - generally riding 13 miles at 95 rpm or higher and then after a few hours off the bike, repeated the process going home. I would have lower rpm going up hills though.

Anyway, I was told to focus just on fast rpm, not speed, so that meant that I was riding with minimal resistence.

My basic question is this: When spinning, should I feel myself pulling back and then up on the pedal stroke? I've asked two people who used to race and they said they didn't, but I wondered if maybe they were just so automatic about it that they just don't notice. But for me, I would feel it because my muscles aren't used to it.

When I do spinning this way, I definitely go faster, but I also am not used to it and don't do it for long.

As a comparison, on flat ground, I usually don't get over 20 mph regardless of rpm unless I push really hard and have to back off within a minute. But there is a section of road just before I get home which is not only near the end of my riding, but is also uphill. I can focus on pulling back and up going up that hill and hit 22 mph very briefly. It also lasts less than a minute, but then it is uphill near the end of the ride.

Anyway, should I try to feel that resistence pulling back and up as I spin or avoid that resistence?

You want to develop a smooth, round pedal stroke. In my Spinning classes, I coach pedal stroke as a pushing down on the front of the stroke, dragging the bottom (like scraping something off of your shoe) and then pulling up and over the top. there are exercises to develop each part of the stroke separately, but I prefer to work on the whole stroke at one time. As you get better, and as your leg muscles get stronger, the transitions between the parts of the stroke disappear. The advantage of the Spinning bike is the fixed gear, which naturally encourages a smooth stroke anyway. I would concentrate on the stroke, increasing your endurance with that stroke and maintaining a higher cadence, as opposed to worrying about your speed. That will come naturally as a result of the improved pedal technique. Also, using a higher cadence in a slightly lower gear will ease the burden on your joints (especially your knees).

> I coach pedal stroke as a pushing down on the front of the stroke, dragging the bottom (like scraping something off of your shoe) and then pulling up and over the top. <

Okay, that sounds to me like I should feel the muscles pulling back and up and I generally haven't been doing that - I just worked on faster rpms. I don't think I was unsmooth, but just didn't think I was gaining anything from it that way.

> I would concentrate on the stroke, increasing your endurance with that stroke and maintaining a higher cadence, as opposed to worrying about your speed. <

I'm not sure I'm going to say this clearly, but I think I was focusing on faster rpm, but NOT the stroke. I know I improved smoothness somewhat because when I started the process, I would be getting bouncy over 100 rpm. After 1000 miles, I could get to 120 or so as I recall before that happened. Anyway, it wasn't doing anything for my speed, even after 1000 miles.

My theory is that I wasn't spreading out the burden, so to speak, throughout the stroke enough to make a noticeable difference.

Or maybe I still am missing something.

I think by now you know what's REALLY holding you back from developing more speed. We've talked about that recently, haven't we? ;)

When pedalling uphill, the idea is NOT to pull and push the pedals- this usually decreases power in your pedal stroke, since the result is less circular pedalling. What you should do is move to a lower gear that allows you to keep a lowered heart rate, then as you're climbing, emphasize the horizontal movement of your pedal stroke- across the top of your pedal stroke and across the bottom. Typically, you'll have more success of pushing across the bottom of your pedal stroke. You get more muscles activated as your foot moves across the bottom of the pedal stroke, and if you are able to employ this method, you'll have a better chance of keeping your cadence higher and keeping your momentum as you ride uphill.

Remember, it's not pulling back and up... it's pushing across the top and bottom of your pedal stroke.

Koffee

> I think by now you know what's REALLY holding you back from developing more speed. We've talked about that recently, haven't we? ;) <

We know part of it - but this spinning thing has been on my mind for years and I think there is something I'm missing in that area too. Hey, I'm taking it easy still - between schedule and weather, I have ridden very little.

> When pedalling uphill, the idea is NOT to pull and push the pedals- this usually decreases power in your pedal stroke, since the result is less circular pedalling. What you should do is move to a lower gear that allows you to keep a lowered heart rate, then as you're climbing, emphasize the horizontal movement of your pedal stroke- across the top of your pedal stroke and across the bottom. Typically, you'll have more success of pushing across the bottom of your pedal stroke. <

I do shift down, though I don't focus on those horizontal strokes you refer to. I only do the pulling up, etc, on that one hill which I use to periodically test what I can do.

But mostly I'm wondering about the spinning on flats, at least for now. Simply fewer variables to deal with.

> Remember, it's not pulling back and up... it's pushing across the top and bottom of your pedal stroke. <

Gotcha. If I get to ride tomorrow, I'll try it. But what about on the flats? Should I feel any "pulling up"? Like I said, right now I normally don't feel any of that unless I deliberately try to.

No, no, no! No pulling.

No, nein, nedda, nunca, non, mola, nej. No pulling, not in the flats or hills.

Koffee

Sure seems strange to me. I mean, how would spinning help me go faster (I know it is better on your knees) if you feel the muscles push down and horizontal, but not up?

Doesn't that mean you are essentially not using parts of your muscle - leaving the remaining parts to do all the work? I know I don't particularly like to pull up, but then, when I first started riding a few years ago, I didn't like regular peddling either - I was just out of shape!

I can spin fast in a low gear (well, 90-105 if I work at it), but I won't be going as fast as spinning slower. And if I push my effort in the next gear or two up, I would clearly be putting a lot more effort into the other parts of the stroke. Apparently that's what I'm supposed to do if I follow all this, but I must be missing something about the purpose of spinning then.

I think you may be missing the point of spinning because it's new to you. Maybe what would be better for you is to find a box that's high enough to rest one foot on, then get into a trainer (or on rollers, whatever you have) and just focus on developing your pedal stroke technique. If you use the method I explained to you, you should be able to feel more muscles activating through your overall pedal stroke. Simply focusing on pulling and pushing will not activate more muscles. I know a lot of people think it does, but experts say otherwise.

It does take time to develop spinning. It doesn't happen overnight, and it won't happen over a month. You really do have to dedicate yourself to learning how to spin effectively. I used to be a masher myself, and it took a lot for me to decide to decrease my gears and learn to spin. I initially lost a lot of speed, but I'm finally noticing that my speed is picking up a lot, especially over the last year.

Give it time. Practice. And do what I recommended for you in a different thread.

Koffee

> then get into a trainer (or on rollers, whatever you have) <

I have neither, but plan on getting a trainer, partly for specific training efforts which are often hard to do on the roads with all the traffic light, etc, problems I have.

> Simply focusing on pulling and pushing will not activate more muscles. <

Maybe I shouldn't have said "focus", but it would be similar to what you said do - trying to work on the horizontal efforts, but if I don't "focus" on doing that, I won't do that. I realize I'm dealing with trying to get a complete stroke, but just felt I was not approaching it correctly.

You know, it is like so many other things on bikes - how the heck do you explain them when you don't have a common background. I mean, I still don't really know what I should expect from a saddle, bike shorts, etc. After all, to me they all feel weird so when someone asks if it feels comfortable or something, my reaction is, "Huh?"! And that doesn't even consider what might seem fine at first, but after 20 miles or whatever, it doesn't work out!

All I can do is keep asking questions, getting as many answers as possible, and sometimes something clicks!

Well, I work on the horizontal efforts anyway and see what happens.

try "ankling"; that is, rotating your ankles as you pedal. Heel down on down stroke, up on upstroke. I see alot of people who ride with pointed toes all through the pedal revolution. Pointy toes on a bike is neither attractive nor efficient. Watch people who are good at it (Lance, for one).

An excellent technique for developing your 1 legged cycling abilities. Since both legs work together when cycling they should both be trained together. Obviously I do not agree with Carmichael on this topic.

Get a fixed gear bike and take a pedal off the crank.
Ride for a week then take the other pedal off (replace first pedal) and ride for another week.
Enjoy

It took be a long time to realize this but spinning is overated. Everyone has an optimum cadence. It's based on individual builds, muscle composition, and personal preferences. Spinning is one of those old tales that hasn't died like wool is the best cold weather clothing and Italian bikes are the ebst. If spinning is claerly the best, all the pros would spin. They don't. Some are mashers, some do it briefly to vary things, some spin to recover after a steep climb, but not everyone.

My advice is try to improve spinning. If you don't get better, faster, or have more endurance, give it up. Then do what comes easist to you. I know that my optimal cadence is 90 rpm. I go to 95 occassionally, and use 80 for sustained speed. I go to 70 on moderrate inclines.

On my ride today I tried to focus on the part of the stroke where you pull back - which seemed easier to do then the push over the top part.

I had pretty decent speed over my first 11 miles (that is where I first starting riding so I still use it for comparison for many things). Other than hills, I pretty much kept rpm at 90 or so and instead of just rapid rpm with what seems like little resistance, I clould feel the back stroke making a difference.

Ended up at 17.82 for those 11 miles, spinning all the way. Considering my 12th best time with an all-out effort is 18.16, that isn't bad. I'm not sure how to characterize the ride. It definitely was NOT an "all-out" effort (which I call level 1) though.

One strange thing was that on the smoothest, flattest road I ride, I was basically under 19 mph - occasionally under 18. Then just beyond that about a mile, I had a mere 25 second stop at a traffic light. After starting out again, I suddenly found my rpms up to 116 and going over 20 mph! Road was still flat, but not real smooth. Go figure.

After doing 19 miles, I stopped for several hours before coming home. I was slower, but I found it much easier to spin. Where I was generally only slightly over 90 rpm heading out, going back that was easy. Mostly I found myself at 96 or better, often going over 100 (up to 125 at one point). Sometimes I felt I was dragging down, but when I looked at the computer, I would be at 96.

Well, I'll probably feel it tomorrow since I'm not used to this, but that's okay, I rest then anyway.

I know I was doing some "ankling" on the back and up stroke, but not sure what I cas doing going over the top. I'll watch for that next time.

Concerning the point made about not using one leg at a time, I know one issue I have is trying to tell what I'm doing at the top and bottom of the stroke. If I think about one foot at the bottom, I have trouble telling what the other foot is doing going over the top. So I can see how the one-leg approach would let you keep track better, at least for a small part of the training. It would let me know if I'm not doing what I think I'm doing.

> My advice is try to improve spinning. If you don't get better, faster, or have more endurance, give it up. Then do what comes easist to you. <

Ah, you think somewhat like I do - is spinning in a specific range necessarily good. The problem is that something can feel better but only because that is what you are used to. I have to deal with this all the time in my field of teaching band in school. I have to get kids to do things which, at first, are harder, but once the technique is learned, it is much easier.

I also agree about all you can do is work at it and see what happens, the two issues being - work at it for how long AND to be sure you are doing it right so you are making a proper evaluation.

NO ANKLING.

Most people haven't a clue as to how to properly use the technique and end up getting hurt. About 85% of what I've read in the forums from people who explain ankling are in this category. It's not worth it.

Terry, I am aware of your disagreements with Carmichael. I am not TELLING anyone to use the Carmichael effort to train for spinning itself. I like the one legged technique so you can focus on the pushing across aspect of the pedal stroke. Other than that, I see very little use for pedalling with one leg. But if you don't get the principals of pedalling, and riding outside isn't going to do it, I totally recommend going at it one leg at a time. Then go outside and ride the bike. There's nothing wrong with that.

All that pedalling with one leg stuff to develop leg power.... nah.

Koffee

Sheldon Brown on ankling:
More info: http://sheldonbrown.com/brandt/ankling.html

hm, I stand corrected. Back in the day, that's what I was taught by my cycling coach (but, being back in the day, I guess it's over). I've never had any problems, but I guess I have not overdone it. But I still don't think that pointy-toed pedaling is any good.

Riding a fixed-gear used to be the thing to do, too. Is that passe as well?

Reading the description of how extreme some people did the ankling, I don't think I come close to that, at least not over the top. I just am aware I'm pivoting the ankle as I pedal - is it supposed to be bad to do that at all???

Work with what works best for you. Alls I'm sayin'... if you read some folks' descriptions, then try to replicate it, you may end up doing more harm than good. I think you're on the right track with wanting to work on spinning. Try working on the spinning for now, and forget about adding in this ankling stuff. Then if you decide you really do want to do ankling, get a good cycling coach off the usacycling.org website who knows how to properly use this technique and can analzye your pedal stroke and give you positive, constructive coaching advice on how to use this technique. Better to get advice from someone who knows about ankling and can oversee your technique and progress than to just read it online and figure out how to do it on your own and end up hurting yourself in the progress.

Koffee

Agreed!

One of these days somebody like Ulrich will start winning multiple TdF's then we'll see threads titled "how do I learn to produce power at lower cadences?" instead of the current spinning trend.

Cyclists should pedal at a cadence that produces the most power. For most people that is somewhere between 80 to 100 RPMs. Read what Michael Smartt of RST Coaching states on this thread for more info ...

http://www.cyclingforums.com/t223465...e-and-tts.html


BTW, many so called Italian bikes don't have much to do with Italy anymore so Italian = best really is a wive's tale. Colnago is made in communist china!!! Sacrilege. :mad:

> Work with what works best for you. <

The trick is to know what is best. So many things seem hard when first doing them, but once learned, are better. So I keep reading every idea posted and hopefully find some that I'll pursue - plus watching out for warnings (such as the ankling thing).

> Try working on the spinning for now <

That is my present plan. I won't do ankling - at least not more than what strikes me as being a natural part of the rotation. I'll be interested to see if by my next planned ride (saturday) if I have recovered from today's spinning effort. If I can recover with just one rest day, then it shouldn't be too long before I can start seeing if I can do it for longer periods.

Do you ride with anyone? One way to understand and mimic spinning and good riding tecnique is to ride with someone who has it and can coach you on it. You will recognize him or her. They seem to float along motionless at 20+mph and you wonder how they do that? Are the actually peadling? Over the years I have learned the most from the best or atleast better than me. There were many good recommendations made in this thread. I learned spinning by riding a fixed gear bike, riding on rollers and concentrating on the motion. Having a coach that hated mashing helped, Thanks Bob. Spinning low gears will save your joints and I attribute my spinning rather than mashing to having zero knee issues.

Jude

Define spinning as you see it-all pros "spin" somewhat even though they may have a slower cadence than some of the other pros. To me spinning is between 80 and 100 or more, a true masher might have trouble keeping a cadence of 80 or so. About pulling up-Greg Lemond always said all you do is unload the weight of your foot on the upstroke much the same as going up steps.

> Do you ride with anyone? <

Almost never - I start out around 2:30-3:30 in the morning to avoid bad traffic here that starts really early.

> I learned spinning by riding a fixed gear bike, riding on rollers and concentrating on the motion. <

The motion seems, to me, to be possible in multiple ways - I can spin fast and, to me at least, fairly smooth, but have minimal resistance. Or I can push more and still have fast rpms resulting in more speed. THen there are all the things about trying to pull back, push over, scrape feet, etc, etc which tends to give a different result. I THINK when I pull back and maintain some resistance, I'm actually smoother, though it is harder at this point. But I was pleasantly surprise that I could do it for 11 miles. I feel fine now, but I'm expecting a little soreness tomorrow.