complete bikes ....?
 

I started to respond to another thread but thought it would be better to start here from scratch.

I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.

If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)

I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.

There's no question here, just an observation.

Interesting to know, I guess the definition of "complete bike" differs in the US and the Netherlands. Over here, all that stuff is considered additional accessories, and besides the lights, few people use them, at least where I live. I don't even know a single person with a bell. Have not noticed one since I was a kid.

I think the 'completeness' of bikes over here is due to the infrastructure created just for bikes. Biking is not necessarily something you do for fun, it's basic transportation. I'll take the bike rather than the car if the weather is good. When I first moved here biking was more for fun. Now that I've lived here for 20 years, it's still for fun but also basic transportation. I've biked to jobs wearing a tux (if the weather was good and the distance not too far).

Racing bikes over here though wouldn't come with lights or even a bell, but you wouldn't expect them to considering their use and the weight issue.

What the stores carry is dictated by what sells. Here in the US is largely road race style bikes. However, if you go into bike stores in larger cities and college towns you'll see many more straight bar bikes with fenders and racks because that's what sells in those environments.

Despite your impression, most bike sales in the US are for mountain-style bikes. The reason you don't see fenders and lights is that bikes here are for sport and recreation, not for utility. Very few get used for commuting or running errands; so if the weather is bad, the bikes stay home.

It's a different Market Dave .. Giant ships different bikes to Rotterdam than they ship to Long Beach.

what the regulations require for a transportation bike are more detailed than what the US requires,,

Point of sale accessory sales help make up for the low price of selling stripped down bikes ..


I've seen some NL bike shops stocked pedals off and handlebars turned sideways so they fit more, in smaller spaces.

And most cars in Europe don't have cup holders. ;)

bikes in the US are sport toys. They aren't meant for everyday or utility uses.

Sad, i know. Honestly there is no reason why commuters in US have to shell out 40-50$ just to fit fender for rainy days.

There are plenty of bikes that can be used for everyday or utility, and come equipped with fenders, the market just doesn't prefer those models.

Fietsenwinkel.nl - De leukste fietsen van Nederland voor de laagste prijs!
And the models available in the Netherlands seem to be priced competitively to the similar bicycles in the US.

Even so, what's wrong with the majority of bicycles in the US being designed as "sport toys?" Whether you like it or not, that's largely what drove innovation for many things, and cycling isn't an exception.

1. Didn't you just do this topic?
http://www.bikeforums.net/general-cy...tore-like.html

2. I take it you don't build up the bicycles you buy? Rowan and I tend to buy frames ... and the components ... the accessories ... and put them all together. Well ... Rowan puts them all together.

Even when we've purchased a mostly built bicycle (like our tandem), we commence making changes immediately. The saddle and pedals were first. My Marinoni Ciclo is a custom bicycle ... I was measured, I requested certain components and the paint scheme, and the bicycle was built. Then, over the years, I changed just about everything ... adding, removing, changing ... saddle and pedals (of course), handlebar, fork, racks, mud guards, lights, gears, wheels, etc. etc. There isn't much left that's original.

It comes down to personal choice ... I don't necessarily want a bicycle with lights built in because I want to be able to choose lights that will suit my needs. I don't necessarily want a bicycle with mud guards ... I have a love/hate relationship with all the mud guards I've ever used and sometimes I just simply don't want to deal with them. However, if I do want those things, I have the option of getting them.

I build up bikes P/T for the LBS .. . the business models in NL and the US are undoubtedly different
as are the rules on what the bike must have on it ..

If Dave wants to narrow it down to just race bikes , then there is a lot of commonality.

ask at your Friendly Dutch Bike shop what they must comply with when selling a General Purpose Transportation bike.
the feed back would be of intrest

Bob, here's a link that covers all the bases.

A you should know Here that is something that varies state to state..
no reflective tire sidewall requirement no illuminated light requirement, just Reflectors .
and people take those off.

and as you read in the Commuter forum, here, the flashing lights

they all seem to feel needed to keep from being plowed into and too many is never an issue,
are disallowed there .. as is helmet mounted lights , apparently.

Your observations are correct for the most part about the product found on the salesroom floor of U.S. bicycle stores, where a relatively small fraction of bicycles are sold. The preponderance of "road bike" is an LBS feature, and LBS bikes, are sold at far higher prices than found at the big box stores (Walmart, Target, K-mart etc) where the majority of bikes (mostly mountain bike style) are sold. Unfortunately the big box stores offer little comparable to the bikes well equipped for urban commuting that were sold in the U.S. until the late 70's-early 80's, i.e. English or Schwinn three speeds. The closest product to a Dutch commuter sold at the big box stores are the beach cruisers which will come equipped with fenders, chainguard wet weather capable coaster brakes, and wider tires.

Do not assume that the speed/efficiency obsessed dropped bar bike influence seen and talked about on the BF Commuting list are representative of typical bikes ridden in the U.S. urban environment. Might be representative of the bikes ridden by those commuters who ride road bikes with their club on the weekends though.

Bikes designed for commuting will typically be higher end bikes.

Bikes like the Dutch Gazelle Toer Populair aren't that common in the States.

If every thread posted here is a new thread, one that had never been posted, things would dry up pretty quickly, don't you think?

I had started to write what I basically wrote here in response to another thread and then stopped and started a new one here.

My father spent his life in textiles. I remember he would state that fashion is not determined by the consumer but by industry. We have a false sense of choice.

When I moved to the Netherlands 20 years ago I was amazed at all the small business vans on the road. They were exactly what I wanted when I lived in the US but they weren't available in the US at that time. I'm a professional musician and I owned two cars when I lived in the US, one for every day use and one for moving equipment. The only vans available for me 20 years ago were the Ford Econoline types and they were too big and had no character.

The small business vans over here are used by the postal service, small businesses, and anyone who needs a cargo area that's not too big. (To have an idea Google VW Caddy or Opel Combo.)

I personally look at lights, reflectors, and bells on bikes as standard fare much like seat belts in cars.

If you want to build a quality bike item by item, Google Koga Signature.

I don't agree that the "overwhelming majority" of bicycles sold in the US are dropped bar race bikes. The majority are mountain bikes (25% of market) as BlazingPedals says. These are followed by hybrids (24%) and finally road bikes (20%). I'd put Dutch bikes in the category of comfort bikes (13% of US market).

That said, I don't what someone else making choices for me based on their biases. Having just been in Amsterdam (flew out Wednesday), I've got to say that I wasn't all that impressed with their bikes. I agree with Machka in that I set up my bicycles to my specifications. Living where I do, I have no need for fenders most of the year and, unlike Machka, I only have a hate relationship with the damned things.

Over the years I have worked my way through the weak generator lights that were available in the 80s to high power halogen battery lights to todays LEDs. I say many bikes in Amsterdam equipped with the same bottle generator lights of 30 years ago. I'd rather have my own lights that I can keep up with the technology rather than rely on 30 year old light systems that were inadequate 30 years ago.
I also notice a lack of rear lights. All the bikes had rear reflectors but no active lights.

I feel the same about racks, saddles and shifting systems.

All Dutch bikes might be equipped with bells but it seems to be the least used item on the bike. Maybe they are just rusted shut. For the 3 days I spent in Amsterdam, I seldom heard a bell used to warn a pedestrian. Most of the time, the bicycles just whizzed around the pedestrians without any kind of warning. At least you could hear the damned scooters.

Finally, there is nothing wrong with using a road bike for commuting. Most of my commutes are done on a road bike with drop bars. I don't have to sit bolt upright to see where I'm going.

But they are not.

From what I understand, you can't go to a shop and be presented with an array of 100 different types of seatbelts which you can quickly and easily install in your car as your whim changes.

But you can do that with bicycle lights. You can pick whatever type of bicycle light suits you ... or not.

And people have different needs when it comes to bicycle lights. Some people never ride in the dark or in foggy/gloomy conditions. Some people might want a light just in case they end up in those conditions, but the light only needs to last for a couple hours. Some people cycle all night long and want a light that lasts all night long. Some people just want to be seen on the bicycle and don't need a light to see by.

And when it comes to bells, some people like to express their personality with their bells and so they'll select one shaped like an animal or something flashy and pink ... others just like a small plain silver bell.

In the Netherlands, the Opa and Oma are ubiquitous because they take place of a car, which is expensive. They're rugged, reliable and can carry quite a load. They're heavy but in a country with no hills, they're more than adequate to the role of the family workhorse bike.

My comparison with seat belts in cars and lights, reflectors, and bells on bikes was, whether you want them or not, they are mandatory here if you bike at night. The bikes, with few exception, all come fully equipped.

I had the option of having my bike equipped with a titanium bell (since my frame is also titanium) but settled for a standard nondescript one.

Maybe that's the key part ... they might be mandatory there, but they aren't necessarily mandatory everywhere. Here, lights are mandatory if you ride at night, but if you don't ride at night, you don't need to have lights on your bicycle.

Whereas here, seatbelts are mandatory all the time, day and night.

Bells though are mandatory day and night.

Not everywhere.

Not in Manitoba ... http://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/h060e.php


(Incidentally, my "here" is not the US)

They are in New Jersey. I have no intention of going state by state, but I'd be willing to make a bet that a bell is required in the US. Go to any state's DOT bicycle site and read what is required.

It would appear bells are mandatory on bikes, the fiercely independent nature of my fellow Americans notwithstanding. :)

Biking in New Jersey, Regulations, Commuter Information

You are misreading the regulation. The section from the New Jersey vehicle code

is similar to Colorado code

An audible signal can be either a bell or voice in my state. I suspect that the language is part of the US Uniform Vehicle Code but I don't want to go wade through that document. Personally, I find saying "On your left" to be more useful than a bell.

Other nations have other regulations as Machka pointed out.

And if you want a titanium bell for your bike look to King Cages in Colorado. You can use it as a shot glass as well.

Gee....bike stores stocking what sells. Whodda thunkit?

IMO there is room for both options ... or more specifically, a range of options ... from a fully equipped, set up bicycle a person can buy and ride away >>>>>>>>> to all the bits and pieces which make up a bicycle.

There's nothing wrong with either end of the scale or anywhere in between, it just depends what the cyclist wants and what the cyclist feels comfortable with.

A non-mechanically inclined cyclist might want a fully equipped, set up bicycle he/she can just ride away.
A more mechanically inclined cyclist might want to build up his/her bicycle.

And I suspect that each shop, wherever the shop is located, makes some attempt to cater to the desires of potential customers in the area.

I was responding to the individual who contradicted my comment about bells being mandatory.

Now I learn that the human voice could be considered a device. I wouldn't have interpreted the law that way, but for me the issue is really not one I wish to spend my time on.

Again, I initiated this thread after first responding to another thread and then deleting my message as I thought it better to start a new thread. My initial post was simply that the overwhelming majority of bikes here in the Netherlands are sold complete. Racing bikes probably wouldn't have lights for the weight issue; they probably wouldn't be sold with lights (though if you bike at night, you need to be seen, thus lights are mandatory).

What I didn't write in this thread, I'll write now which may give you an idea of my history regarding bikes.

I bought a bike 30 or 35 years ago when I lived in the US. There wasn't much in the way of choice then and I bought a 10 speed (I think) racing style bike. I never really biked all that much, the primary reason was neck pain. I moved here 20 years ago and saw a predominance of upright bikes ... and there were so many models from which to choose. I initially settled on a second hand three speed which served me well for a few years.

As time went on I would trade one bike in and buy another. It wasn't always a trade up though. I've bought bikes simply because of the design. Overall though, I never had any neck pain from sitting in a more upright position. There was a definite lack of choice for me in the US 30 years ago. I know the situation has improved somewhat but not to the extent of what I see offered in Holland, Germany, Belgium, or Denmark.

Ugh, this thread topic was lame last month and it's lame this month. Maybe it will work out for you in August.