qmsdc15

Actually higher angled aero bars put rider in a more aero position. The higher the hands, the lower the elbows.

no1mad 

Want to go faster? Pedal harder. Want more hand positions? Get bar ends or a trekking/butterfly bar. Or do what Sheldon did and use both a flat bar and a drop bar at the same time...

AdelaaR

I shouldn't really be answering this as I will probably just attract more insults by doing so ... but I cannot understand a few things:
1) Why are you so eager on trying to insult me?
2) Why would riding at an average of 20 mph be so vastly amazing that it is completely unbelievable?
3) Why would I lie? I would be mainly lying to myself, wouldn't I?
I never said i can keep that average for more than about 20 miles, after that I'm completely "knackered" (as they say in england)

AdelaaR

I do not know how you set up your bike or how you hold your bar-ends or maybe you just never had a hybrid with barends and an aerobar yet and are just asuming things you know nothing about, but rest assured that the difference between holding the barends and using the aerobar on my bike is a difference of day and night and makes my back incline about 30 degrees more.

meanwhile

Partly because of aero problems on a hybrid, partly because you said you have medical problems, and partly because last time you said 18mph NOT 20!

meanwhile

Not quite:

1. It would be at the same HEIGHT but the hands would be closer together. Plus you should imagine the flat bar running through the rear of the hoods, not the centre - the hoods should be positioned like bar extensions.

2. That prescription was for a comfortable fit for someone new to drop bars. The typical position is more aggressive.

3. My experience is that with drop bars and flats in a similar position the torso will be lower with flats - which is what makes for a more aero position.

AdelaaR

I have said 22 aswell and that was also true, but only for 10 kilometers
I've even done 10 kilometers averaging 22,5 mph and that is my record to day (I assume I had a tailwind at that time).
On the topic about average speeds, I said:

"My average is between 18 and 21 mph on partly flat and partly hilly terrain doing both roads and some trails on 10 to 20 mile rides"

... and that is exactly how it is, whether you like it or not and wether you think it is impossible or not and whether you think i lie about it or not.
What I wonder is: "why do you so desperately want to not believe me?" ... I'm not a psychologist but it at least strikes me as odd.

PS: I've just returned from doing 17,8 miles at an average of 18,7 mph ... I was a bit slow there because there was a very heavy headwind for most of the flat parts.

PPS: writing your arguments in bold font format does not make your arguments any more valid ... au contraire.

PPPS: My speedometer is perfectly calibrated ... I used Sheldon Brown's method and checked it on a measured course. (I'm just saying this so you wouldn't start an argument about that aswell)

Exocet 98

You tell him Pinocchio!!!!

AdelaaR

Do you ever actually contribute anything of value to this forum or are you just here to call people names?

Palomar01

This is a very good post.

No matter what you ride, if you ride, you will get into shape.

Now regarding road bikes vs hybrids, it really depends on where you ride and your physical condition. Like others have mentioned, not everyone is fit enough to take advantage of the drop bar position.

I used to be large and fluffy so I started out riding on a MTB. Loved it. Great ride. Comfy. But the lack of hand positions make it tiring after a 15 mile ride. I so wanted to move my arms around but I couldn't.

When I got into better shape, I switched to a road bike with 700x23C tires--the standard race bike tire size. Oh what a difference in performance and efficiency. I also had to get used to the low, racy, riding position (my road bike has a standard triangle and not the compact frame). I appreciated the speed, and the fact that every pedal stroke went straight to the rear wheels. I also appreciated the multiple hand positions (I have at least 4). It did take a while to get used to riding in the drops but now I like it especially when there is a headwind or I'm cruising downhill. Going uphill I'm always on the top bars like the MTB position to allow maximum breathing efficiency.

The ride is not as bad as many of you think if the road you ride in are relatively smooth. It's possible for me to go to a 700x25c tire to soften the ride more. However, my bike has carbon fiber seatstays and fork, which absorbs a lot of vibrations and actually gives the bike a nice ride. But no, it's not the same as a full suspension MTB or a hybrid bike with 700x32c tires.

I still prefer the road bike ESPECIALLY for longer rides. I prefer it for its efficiency, handling, looks, and options in had positions. Unless you plan to go offroad, a road bike offers the best of everything a bike has to offer. Only downer is no baskets/racks. But that's what commuter bags are for.

AdelaaR

I went out riding yesterday and on the long flat road to Brakel I passed a young and very able roadie.
I was cruising using my aerobars and he was cruising using his top position.
I was going at about 35km/h at that time.
The road started to go slightly down a bit and I cranked up my speed to about 38km/h ... aparently this roadie was a bit pissed off because he had been taken over by something that looked like a mountainbike and he suddenly came flying past me holding the drops and pumping like a madman.
I'm allways up for a bit of sport, so I decided to chase him and soon after that we both rode at about 43km/h on the flat.
Sadly though, the little race had no finish because he suddenly stopped at the local bakery

My point is: hybrids can be fast and comfortable ... not quite as fast as a roadbike being driven in the drops ... but definately more comfortable.

Palomar01

Given equal riders, a road bike will always be faster than a hybrid due to weight difference and increased efficiency of the hardware inherent on a road bicycle.

But that doesn’t mean anything as to which bike is better because one has advantages over the other because each type is built for a different purpose.

Riding in the drops will not miraculously increase your speed if the “engine” (rider) is not fit enough.

Palomar01

Average speeds can be tricky to pinpoint because it will depend on a variety of factors. For example, if you measure your average speed over a 2 hour period of riding, it can easily go way up or way down depending on how many times you stopped, regardless of whether you were cruising along at 20 mph for a good 30 minutes. If you measure you average speed over several miles of nothing but straight roads with no stops, then your speed will be high. Using a bicycle computer really gives you a more accurate picture of your whole ride as far as averages go. It’s not subject to any fudge factor. LOL!

Seriously, an average rider who is fit and has a relatively efficient bicycle (road bicycle) can easily maintain 15-18 mph on a flat road with very little wind assistance/resistance. The same rider who can maintain 20 mph would be considered relatively quick. Riders who race and are in excellent condition riding really good bikes will be able to maintain 20-22 mph alone. In a small group of same rides, they will easily cruise along at 24-25 mph. That’s fast!

AdelaaR

Palomar01, there's no reason why a roadbike should have "increased efficiency of the hardware".
One can easily build a hybrid with road drivetrain and road wheels.

khutch

Actually one can easily buy them that way from the factory too. My Fuji Absolute just does not differ that much from their closest priced Newest or Roubaix models. Equipment, weight, and geometry are quite similar, or they were in 2009. If you look at the 2010 page the Absolute now has disk brakes and that makes it porkier and would put it at a disadvantage in a road race. A performance hybrid these days is basically a flat bar road bike with wider tires, on the same rims. If I slapped some aerobars on it and rock hard 23 mm tires the only thing preventing me from keeping up with the roadies in my age group on similarly priced bikes is my engine. That needs some work still and some of their engines do too so I know I could keep up with some of them! Put us both on any bikes you choose and I won't ever keep up with someone your age....

Ken

Sixty Fiver

My folder cruises along pretty well in that 15-18 mph range and that is a pace I can keep up all day when the bike is loaded with gear as it is set up for touring and not racing but does run some high performance tyres and allows for a very aero position and the components are of very good quality, especially my hubs.



If I stripped the bike down and upped the gearing it would be faster.

Have done 25mph solo rides (TT's) when I was running at 100% and besides dedication and serious training you need to have the right machine under you as this is where reduced weight and optimal aerodynamics have an effect.

AdelaaR

Now there's a cool funny bike!

Palomar01

You can keep up a 15-18 mph pace all day on a loaded folding bike? That sounds amazingly good to me. Not that I don’t believe you but I would really like to see that as it sounds very impressive.

25 mph on a TT with all your aero gear and running at 100%....yeah that sounds about right.

I once rode in a group of roadies and they were cruising at 25 mph in the flats. I just couldn’t keep up that pace even at the back of the pack. In a group, a more realistic pace for me is around 20-22 mph on flat roads. That’s on a road bike.

Palomar01

Adeela, the increased efficiency comes from the frame and not necessarily the component hardware. If you build a hybrid with the same components as the most efficient road bike, you really end up with a road bike with a flat bar.

You should try riding a MTB and a road bicycle back to back. You will find a huge discrepancy in efficiency and will give you the meaning of what I am talking about.

Efficiency comes from the stiffness of the frame, especially down at the bottom bracket (where your crank is) area and chain stays. An efficient frame will take most of your pedaling power from the crank and transmit it to the rear wheels. So there, you want stiffness from the frame, a stiff and lightweight crank, and stiff chain stays that can take your pedal power to the rear wheels where it belongs. Having lightweight wheels also help a great deal because lighter wheels take less effort to accelerate and keep spinning. Gearing is another component to that but that’s a given in most bikes today.

Having an overall lightweight bicycle (frame, wheels, & components) also gives the rider an edge because it takes less effort to accelerate and maintain speed.

Aluminum frames are generally very stiff and can also be made very light (for example, Cannondale’s CAAD 9 family). However, Carbon Fiber can easily match that stiffness yet provide greater weight savings because CF can be build up in a variety of different ways to increase stiffness in places without increasing weight, etc. Also, CF in general absorbs a greater amount of road vibration vs an AL frame. Finally, CF can be designed to flex in certain directions yet still remain very stiff for power transfer, making it possible to design a frame that is both lightweight, stiff for power transfer, yet compliant for a smooth ride over rough pavement. Overall, it is easier to build a lightweight and efficient CF frame versus an aluminum or Titanium frame. This is why CF frames are favored for overall performance. Having said that, entry level CF frames are not quite up to par with the best aluminum frames. But when you get to the $2.5k+ price point, the CF framed bikes begin to surpass the best aluminum frames because the materials and manufacturing process of these “higher modulous” CF frames is more complex, lighter, etc

Sixty Fiver

Do not underestimate the power of the "cool funny bike"... people who have never ridden folders or small wheeled bikes have trouble understanding that they can offer very decent performance.

It is a fun bike and it blows a few people's minds that a bike with 20 inch wheels isn't supposed to be on the sidewalk... with the gearing I have on the bike the top speed is 40kmh as it's gearing leans toward to low side for climbing and hauling.

I was doing 40km time trials 25 years ago with nothing more than a really decent racing bike and no specialized aero gear and even managed to knock down a sub hour 40 on my vintage Raleigh club bike which is a fixed gear. Consider that back in the 50's people were doing this with basically the same set up and the sub hour 40 was a benchmark for rating ones abilities on a bike.

Modern bikes make people even faster and there are folks who can knock down a 40 in under 55 minutes !

Would have loved to have had some of the technology they have now as although I rode very nice bikes, the stuff they have now will let folks do a 40 (km) TT in some stunning times.

It takes immense dedication to do this although it was easier to do 25 years ago and I did not think much of it at the time... mind you... I was riding 40 miles a day and was teaching martial arts so was about as fit as I have ever been.

Now I am just happy to pootle along at a comfortable pace and with one good leg and a little help from a not so good leg I can maintain a good pace as long as I can keep spinning like a gerbil on crack.

There was a time the granny rings on my bikes collected dust as I never needed them.

AdelaaR

That is al true and fascinating, but I still do not see why normal people would want to pay $2500+ for a bicycle.
But to each his own, ofcourse.
My frame cost me about $160 ... it is triple butted heat treated 7005 Aluminum and very stiff.
The weight difference between a carbon frame and mine is marginal.
I don't think anyone not competing in races should have a better and more expensive frame.
But as I said before: if people want to throw money at bikes they can go ahead ... but it is my right to tell them that they have overdone themselves

Sixty Fiver

Back to hybrids...

My Trek 7500 is one of the stiffest bikes I have ever owned so it transfers power very well, it has a more aggressive frame design which helps with aerodynamics, and is perfectly tuned.

With my road wheels and 700:28 tyres I have been able to ride with some pretty fast guys and they have been pretty amazed that hybrid can come close to matching the performance of much lighter and supposedly faster machines.

More weight does have an effect on hills but as I am a lightweight the combined weight of me and my bike is much less than some of the monsters I ride with... one is six foot three and 220 pounds with a 19 pound racing bike which totals 239 pounds, I am 140 with a 28 pound bike which is 168 pounds.

If we are climbing hard the wattage my friend has to crank out to keep pace with me many times higher and I don;t have to put out the same wattage on the flats to maintain speeds... to do a sub hour 40 I need to be able to sustain a 275 - 300 watt output for an hour while he has to dig a lot deeper (and he can).

He is the guy that will pull you along all day... I don't see much of him during the season as he's out riding 100-160 km a day when he is not working.

And then it all comes down to how well tuned your engine is... I was riding 16,000 km a year and was working as a messenger, was mountain biking and road riding, touring, and as I am car free, doing a lot of utilitarian riding.

Was looking forward to master's racing until I fragged the back and to compete with these guys you need to be able to maintain 40kmh plus in the pack if you want to have a hope of finishing well... these guys are freaks and can put the hurt on guys half their age.

For this kind of riding I have a road bike as for as good as my hybrid is, putting the same engine in a lighter and more aerodynamic package yields some significant improvements.

Palomar01

Adelee, unless you are racing, there is absolutely no need to spend over $1k on a bicycle…..ANY bicycle. Of course there’s needs then there are WANTS….

The weight difference in an entry level Carbon bike is not much compared to a really good AL frame bike. For example, a Cannondale Six Carbon with Tiagra components weighs 19.7 lbs. while a Felt 75 with 105 that is mostly AL (CF fork and seatstays) weighs 19 lbs. The lightest AL bike I know of is the Cannondale CAAD 9-4, which comes in at 17 lbs, which costs $1.8k. To get to that weight in a CF framed bike, you need to pay up in the $2.5k. Of course, the CF bike will have a nicer ride due to the inherent vibration & some shock absorption of CF frames (some frames more than others).

The thing is, really good AL framed bikes are being surpassed by CF bikes for reasons I’ve stated in my other post. It won’t be long before all road bikes will be CF, just like AL has almost replaced Chro-Mo steel frames. Thus, the choices for a really good AL road bike has shrunk down to a handful. Meanwhile, there are tons of entry level CF framed bikes and all high end bikes are CF/Ti frames. The same transition is happening with the aircraft industry where CF is slowly taking over in places AL was the traditional material.

Palomar01

Sixty Fiver, what’s the secret of making a Folding Bike go fast (besides improving the engine)? Tires? Gearing?

I’m planning on buying one for the wife and I for leisurely riding but I am interested to see how fast it can be ridden.

Sixty Fiver

You can also make some seriously light steel bikes but these will exceed the cost of a comparable CF bike... carbon fibre technology has come quite a ways and these frames are getting less expensive while the parts attached to them can cost immense sums of money.

But who needs a 15-16 pound wonder bike ?