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Oslo: The Journey to Car Free

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Oslo: The Journey to Car Free

Old 05-20-17, 02:27 PM
  #201  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
As I posted it is a FYI feel free to ignore the links. Statements have been made that commuting times would be less in highly dense cities and people would be happier. I couldn't find surveys and studies supporting the Yet people in China still seem more willing to commute than not and their time is higher than LA. Their concerns are as some here have and the quote in the British link I found amusing. But I have made my choice and my views are known. So it is just a FYI over the "it should be statements" made so often earlier. The Quote from the British link:" The most annoying bugbear for commuters is when fellow passengers have their music on too loud, with 26 per cent of those surveyed saying that, closely followed by 21 per cent who can't stand people smelling badly."

I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
Mobile 155, you post about how disgusting humans are who live in density and share public transit, but you never seem to acknowledge that LCF doesn't require the kind of density that you are talking about. Maybe it does if everyone only walks instead of biking, but it's completely possible to have bikeable levels of semi-density that are less sprawling than driving-dependent suburban areas yet not as dense as densely-populated downtown areas.
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Old 05-20-17, 02:41 PM
  #202  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
Mobile 155, you post about how disgusting humans are who live in density and share public transit, but you never seem to acknowledge that LCF doesn't require the kind of density that you are talking about. Maybe it does if everyone only walks instead of biking, but it's completely possible to have bikeable levels of semi-density that are less sprawling than driving-dependent suburban areas yet not as dense as densely-populated downtown areas.

Just posting the links to show commute times between cities and countries. Dispute the links if you wish it was an FYI. They also deal with many of the debated issues discussed.
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Old 05-20-17, 04:22 PM
  #203  
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More FYI on commute times even in "LCF" friendly cities. and one is the one we are talking about.

GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.

https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
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Old 05-20-17, 04:54 PM
  #204  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Just posting the links to show commute times between cities and countries. Dispute the links if you wish it was an FYI. They also deal with many of the debated issues discussed.
I was referring to this part of your post:
The Quote from the British link:" The most annoying bugbear for commuters is when fellow passengers have their music on too loud, with 26 per cent of those surveyed saying that, closely followed by 21 per cent who can't stand people smelling badly."

I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
You're citing another source, but you are basically rehearsing your regular negativity about human congestion offending your senses in various ways. Why don't you just post a link to Soylent Green and be done with it?
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Old 05-20-17, 06:03 PM
  #205  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
I was referring to this part of your post:
You're citing another source, but you are basically rehearsing your regular negativity about human congestion offending your senses in various ways. Why don't you just post a link to Soylent Green and be done with it?

I thought someone else brought up some of the others cities and compared them to Oslo or in the post they called it Dutch cities? It seems to me the subject of commuting times was brought up and multi hour commutes in California was mentioned as if the ones in Oslo and surrounding areas was better because of LCF? SO has the subject drifted off of that and onto the quote I posted from a Welsh commuter and a link I posted? Isn't it, LCF, Commute times and living places?
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Old 05-20-17, 07:09 PM
  #206  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
...


I think Dutch geography is basically a lot of suburban sprawl, only the suburbs are more bikeable and within bikeable distance of more other suburbs and one or more city centers. I.e. it's not like everyone lives in dense downtown areas, but yet people can still get around and commute by bike from their suburban neighborhoods where they live.

I think you're inventing your own reality to suit your arguments. In any language, living cheek to cheek is crowded-- sounds to me like you literally are stepping on people to get around and a bicycle becomes a bicycle for two out of necessity:


The Netherlands, already a small and crowded country, is filling up fast. One British expat in Amsterdam explains the lessons she's learnt since joining the jostling commuters there...


,,while Amsterdam may have a smaller population, there is less space per person, and people speak a different language to the British when it comes to personal space...


Economy is the name of the game out here; people move as quickly, linger as little and travel as efficiently as possible. This is prompted by the breathtakingly restrictive streets favoured by Dutch town planners. Rather than strolling along hand in hand, couples instead choose to hop on the same bike. Now taking up less space than they would on the pavement, they can drift along at a more relaxed pace than if they walked.



If you don't have a bike and decide to take the tram, then don't expect to be offered a seat. In fact; expect every single person on the tram to prioritise their shopping bags over your comfort. This isnít rudeness, itís just that when you live crushed together you get very good at recruiting personal space...


Outside on the streets you can expect to get nowhere fast but at least youíll receive fewer glares than on a bustling British high street... In the UK, I used to engage in at least one argument with a stranger per week Ė usually prompted by one of us accidentally stepping on the other Ė but I've ditched the habit since moving to Amsterdam...


Iím inclined to think that living cheek to cheek with hundreds of thousands of Dutch strangers is preparing me far better for Englandís future than three years living in London did.
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Old 05-20-17, 07:43 PM
  #207  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
More FYI on commute times even in "LCF" friendly cities. and one is the one we are talking about.

GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca

The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.

https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
The one from Ontario refers to commuting in Toronto and the surrounding areas as taking a little under an hour a day, or close to 30 min each way, but doesn't break it down more than that. The one from Norway covers the whole country, not just Oslo and covers all travel (3.26 trips per day) so we can't conclude much about Oslo commuting.

Having said that, I am kind of surprised at the British stats, but I haven't been able to dig into the details yet.
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Old 05-20-17, 09:15 PM
  #208  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
The one from Ontario refers to commuting in Toronto and the surrounding areas as taking a little under an hour a day, or close to 30 min each way, but doesn't break it down more than that. The one from Norway covers the whole country, not just Oslo and covers all travel (3.26 trips per day) so we can't conclude much about Oslo commuting.

Having said that, I am kind of surprised at the British stats, but I haven't been able to dig into the details yet.

Surprised or not it is still a commuting statistic and if you compare all of Norway to all of the US commuting times are better here. From the first link, "On average, Americans spent 23.7 minutes getting to work.". So there is no reason to assume LCF assists in commuting time based on statistics. However you get there time to get to work is measured in minutes. Not that I care that much but I simply am pointing out that there is no promise of shorter commute times in denser cities. I also was impressed with the monthly cost for the Brits in some areas, "The area reporting the most expensive journey is East Anglia with an average of £221 spent per month, closely followed by the South East at £192 per month and London at £176 per month. "

That is $288.00 a month and if that is transit costs that is way over priced. The article was talking about transit at the time of that quote. Still I haven't seen anything that indicates LCF leads to shorter commute times, considering New York has far fewer drivers than California.

https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-...ty-study-finds

I am just saying that it is often hinted that LCF and Mass transit make for shorter commutes for everyone. I haven't found that to be proven.
So I will just leave those links there and let each person draw what they will from them.

Last edited by Mobile 155; 05-20-17 at 09:29 PM.
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Old 05-20-17, 09:40 PM
  #209  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post

...

I am just saying that it is often hinted that LCF and Mass transit make for shorter commutes for everyone. I haven't found that to be proven.
So I will just leave those links there and let each person draw what they will from them.
[/COLOR][/LEFT]
6 hour commute time in China (and sometimes up to nine hours or more – travelling to and from Beijing to work each day)...


BBC - Capital - The gruelling, six-hour commute of Beijing?s workers
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Old 05-20-17, 09:49 PM
  #210  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
Surprised or not it is still a commuting statistic and if you compare all of Norway to all of the US commuting times are better here.
The Norway link isn't about commuting.
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Old 05-20-17, 10:10 PM
  #211  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
The Norway link isn't about commuting.

This one is:
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2..._from_work.pdf

Look at Norway and compare it to the US. Still doesn't show a relation to LCF and Shorter commute times.
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Old 05-21-17, 12:42 AM
  #212  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
I think you're inventing your own reality to suit your arguments. In any language, living cheek to cheek is crowded-- sounds to me like you literally are stepping on people to get around and a bicycle becomes a bicycle for two out of necessity:
Your whole premise is idiotic: "nobody wants to live in crowded areas." So how the hell did they get so crowded if nobody wants to live there?
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Old 05-21-17, 06:01 AM
  #213  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
The one from Ontario refers to commuting in Toronto and the surrounding areas as taking a little under an hour a day, or close to 30 min each way, but doesn't break it down more than that.

I compared different types of transportation to see how long it take to get from my home to work and from work to home, here are my results:


Public transit takes an average of 2 hours per day for a two way trip, and a lot longer if you have to stop and run errands along the way or miss the bus and have to wait in between. I only live 12 km from work, but there are thousands of people in GTA who spend 3-4 hours per day just to commute by public transit.


If I drive it takes an average of 30-35 minutes each way.


If I bike it's about 45 minutes each way.


Public transit is by far the slowest, most miserable and annoying way to get around.
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Old 05-21-17, 07:07 AM
  #214  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
This one is:
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2..._from_work.pdf

Look at Norway and compare it to the US. Still doesn't show a relation to LCF and Shorter commute times.
That's better information, thanks.
Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
I compared different types of transportation to see how long it take to get from my home to work and from work to home, here are my results:


Public transit takes an average of 2 hours per day for a two way trip, and a lot longer if you have to stop and run errands along the way or miss the bus and have to wait in between. I only live 12 km from work, but there are thousands of people in GTA who spend 3-4 hours per day just to commute by public transit.


If I drive it takes an average of 30-35 minutes each way.


If I bike it's about 45 minutes each way.


Public transit is by far the slowest, most miserable and annoying way to get around.
My numbers show the same trend. I've probably only driven to work 3 times in the 4 years I've been at my current work location and I've taken a cab home maybe twice if I was ill or late for my anniversary or something, so I can only guesstimate that driving regularly takes about 30-40 minutes, whereas I know biking 11 km takes 45 minutes and public transit 70. It's quite annoying that the transit linkage is so poor to my current office location due to the awkward diagonal direction with three legs. Even so I much prefer not to drive as I find it very unpleasant, not to mention expensive (we'd need another car if I did it routinely) and unhealthy.

Obviously the biking is the best. The transit option involves about 2 km of walking and I usually opt for a full surface route so I get a seat and am connected, but even if I go underground and have to stand, that segment is only 20 minutes and I can still read a newspaper or downloaded article. So it looks like I have a longer commute than someone else, but it is partly that I have a choice and chose slower because it works better for me.

Last edited by cooker; 05-21-17 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 05-21-17, 08:59 AM
  #215  
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Originally Posted by Mobile 155 View Post
I thought someone else brought up some of the others cities and compared them to Oslo or in the post they called it Dutch cities? It seems to me the subject of commuting times was brought up and multi hour commutes in California was mentioned as if the ones in Oslo and surrounding areas was better because of LCF? SO has the subject drifted off of that and onto the quote I posted from a Welsh commuter and a link I posted? Isn't it, LCF, Commute times and living places?
Idk. I was focused on the part of your post that talked about noise and stink as being deterrents to public transit use. You and some others generally like to put down public transit as being offensive at a sensory level. It seems to be part of a general attitude of insisting that people want cars not public transit. I, personally, get tired of listening to it because it doesn't matter to me if 99% of people want something that's ultimately bad and unsustainable economically and environmentally. When something is good for the long term health of the environment, economy, and society, you focus on the positives and ways to make it better, not on complaining that it sucks and people don't want it.
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Old 05-21-17, 09:04 AM
  #216  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
I think you're inventing your own reality to suit your arguments. In any language, living cheek to cheek is crowded-- sounds to me like you literally are stepping on people to get around and a bicycle becomes a bicycle for two out of necessity:
As I said, I wish Stadjer would settle this because he has spent a lot more time in various Dutch areas than I have. My impression, however, is that there are many many Dutch cities and suburbs that are not that dense relative to a pedestrian-oriented city, yet they are bikeable so the roads aren't that wide and distances aren't so sprawling as in areas where driving is the dominant mode for getting around between sprawling suburbs.
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Old 05-21-17, 09:55 AM
  #217  
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Originally Posted by Roody View Post
Your whole premise is idiotic: "nobody wants to live in crowded areas." So how the hell did they get so crowded if nobody wants to live there?


Why do you send me a personal message that you will ignore my posts and then respond with such incivility? Rhetorical question-- could care less...
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Old 05-21-17, 10:04 AM
  #218  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
As I said, I wish Stadjer would settle this because he has spent a lot more time in various Dutch areas than I have. My impression, however, is that there are many many Dutch cities and suburbs that are not that dense relative to a pedestrian-oriented city, yet they are bikeable so the roads aren't that wide and distances aren't so sprawling as in areas where driving is the dominant mode for getting around between sprawling suburbs.

To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
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Old 05-21-17, 10:16 AM
  #219  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
The problem is that everyone can't benefit from owning a car if everyone does. So either some people have to give up car ownership or population growth has to be limited; and limiting population really just comes down to excluding people from the economic privilege to have/drive a car, so we're both actually for the same thing, i.e. limiting car ownership; only you would rather limit some so that others can have unlimited driving, whereas I see it as better if less people drive everywhere, because then it doesn't feel like you're missing something not to have one; the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing something to not have a helicopter.
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Old 05-21-17, 10:34 AM
  #220  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
If you appreciate cars, that is up to you, but since you are posting in a forum that isn't about that, your posts seem quite out of place. You almost never post about bikes elsewhere on the forum either, so it's almost as if you only come to the bike forums to talk about your love of cars. There are lots of forums for car lovers.

Nevertheless, I'm still hopeful you'll tell us about your own interest in living car free or light. Any thoughts on that?
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Old 05-21-17, 10:42 AM
  #221  
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Originally Posted by tandempower View Post
...

because then it doesn't feel like you're missing something not to have one; the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing something to not have a helicopter.
e.g., the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing somethin to not have the freedom to choose for yourself if no one has freedom? I don't buy that as the solution but I do see such thinking as underlying the LCF movement-- i.e., it's more about limiting choice with decisions made by state planners...
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Old 05-21-17, 10:48 AM
  #222  
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Originally Posted by cooker View Post
If you appreciate cars, that is up to you, but since you are posting in a forum that isn't about that, your posts seem quite out of place. You almost never post about bikes elsewhere on the forum either, so it's almost as if you only come to the bike forums to talk about your love of cars. There are lots of forums for car lovers.

Nevertheless, I'm still hopeful you'll tell us about your own interest in living car free or light. Any thoughts on that?
As a subforum on BikeForums the topic should be about interest in bikes and cycling -- including commuting by bikes -- not interest in living car free or job free or clothes free or responsibility free or drug free, booze free, religion free...
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Old 05-21-17, 10:52 AM
  #223  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
As a subforum on BikeForums the topic should be about interest in bikes and cycling -- including commuting by bikes -- not interest in living car free or job free or clothes free or responsibility free or drug free, booze free, religion free...
Please start some of those threads. Be the change you wish to see in the world
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Old 05-21-17, 11:05 AM
  #224  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
I do see such thinking as underlying the LCF movement-- i.e., it's more about limiting choice with decisions made by state planners...
People keep doing that fearmongering here, but never back it up with quotes. Actually, I was pointing out above that by living in an urban area, I have more options - I can bike, drive or take transit to work. A lot of people only have one option.
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Old 05-21-17, 11:07 AM
  #225  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
e.g., the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing somethin to not have the freedom to choose for yourself if no one has freedom? I don't buy that as the solution but I do see such thinking as underlying the LCF movement-- i.e., it's more about limiting choice with decisions made by state planners...
You have the freedom to choose a helicopter, but you don't exercise that freedom, probably because it would be a waste of your money to bother with something so expensive and dangerous that would have little added value to you as a vehicle. If there was a helicopter culture like the automotive culture, parking lots would have to be big enough for everyone to land their helicopter there. They'd have to be spread out enough to prevent collisions between incoming and outgoing 'lanes' of helicopters. There would be constant noise and wind from all the helicopters.

You normalize the widespread dominance of driving and sprawl, and by doing so ignore all the negative effects in order to focus on the benefits of being able to drive long distance in a shorter period of time, but cars like helicopters are noisy, violent motorized vehicles that cause developments to be more spread-out and sprawling, and such sprawling areas are more difficult to get around by biking, walking, and transit the same way it would be more difficult to get around in an area where everything was set up for helicopters as the dominant mode of transportation.

I mean, imagine if Oslo was reforming the city for ease of helicopter use instead of LCF! How much more difficult and unpleasant would it be to bike, walk, use transit, OR drive if everything was being converted to helicopter parking? Surely you can see how reducing driving and parking in a city makes it better in the same way that increasing helicopter travel would make it worse.
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