Oslo: The Journey to Car Free
#201
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As I posted it is a FYI feel free to ignore the links. Statements have been made that commuting times would be less in highly dense cities and people would be happier. I couldn't find surveys and studies supporting the Yet people in China still seem more willing to commute than not and their time is higher than LA. Their concerns are as some here have and the quote in the British link I found amusing. But I have made my choice and my views are known. So it is just a FYI over the "it should be statements" made so often earlier. The Quote from the British link:" The most annoying bugbear for commuters is when fellow passengers have their music on too loud, with 26 per cent of those surveyed saying that, closely followed by 21 per cent who can't stand people smelling badly."
I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
#202
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Mobile 155, you post about how disgusting humans are who live in density and share public transit, but you never seem to acknowledge that LCF doesn't require the kind of density that you are talking about. Maybe it does if everyone only walks instead of biking, but it's completely possible to have bikeable levels of semi-density that are less sprawling than driving-dependent suburban areas yet not as dense as densely-populated downtown areas.
Just posting the links to show commute times between cities and countries. Dispute the links if you wish it was an FYI. They also deal with many of the debated issues discussed.
#203
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From: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
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More FYI on commute times even in "LCF" friendly cities. and one is the one we are talking about.
GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.
https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.
https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
#204
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The Quote from the British link:" The most annoying bugbear for commuters is when fellow passengers have their music on too loud, with 26 per cent of those surveyed saying that, closely followed by 21 per cent who can't stand people smelling badly."
I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
I didn't say it the link did. And I have visited some of the cities mentioned. Seems about right to me.
#205
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From: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
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I thought someone else brought up some of the others cities and compared them to Oslo or in the post they called it Dutch cities? It seems to me the subject of commuting times was brought up and multi hour commutes in California was mentioned as if the ones in Oslo and surrounding areas was better because of LCF? SO has the subject drifted off of that and onto the quote I posted from a Welsh commuter and a link I posted? Isn't it, LCF, Commute times and living places?
#206
...
I think Dutch geography is basically a lot of suburban sprawl, only the suburbs are more bikeable and within bikeable distance of more other suburbs and one or more city centers. I.e. it's not like everyone lives in dense downtown areas, but yet people can still get around and commute by bike from their suburban neighborhoods where they live.
I think Dutch geography is basically a lot of suburban sprawl, only the suburbs are more bikeable and within bikeable distance of more other suburbs and one or more city centers. I.e. it's not like everyone lives in dense downtown areas, but yet people can still get around and commute by bike from their suburban neighborhoods where they live.
I think you're inventing your own reality to suit your arguments. In any language, living cheek to cheek is crowded-- sounds to me like you literally are stepping on people to get around and a bicycle becomes a bicycle for two out of necessity:
The Netherlands, already a small and crowded country, is filling up fast. One British expat in Amsterdam explains the lessons she's learnt since joining the jostling commuters there...
,,while Amsterdam may have a smaller population, there is less space per person, and people speak a different language to the British when it comes to personal space...
Economy is the name of the game out here; people move as quickly, linger as little and travel as efficiently as possible. This is prompted by the breathtakingly restrictive streets favoured by Dutch town planners. Rather than strolling along hand in hand, couples instead choose to hop on the same bike. Now taking up less space than they would on the pavement, they can drift along at a more relaxed pace than if they walked.
If you don't have a bike and decide to take the tram, then don't expect to be offered a seat. In fact; expect every single person on the tram to prioritise their shopping bags over your comfort. This isn’t rudeness, it’s just that when you live crushed together you get very good at recruiting personal space...
Outside on the streets you can expect to get nowhere fast but at least you’ll receive fewer glares than on a bustling British high street... In the UK, I used to engage in at least one argument with a stranger per week – usually prompted by one of us accidentally stepping on the other – but I've ditched the habit since moving to Amsterdam...
I’m inclined to think that living cheek to cheek with hundreds of thousands of Dutch strangers is preparing me far better for England’s future than three years living in London did.
,,while Amsterdam may have a smaller population, there is less space per person, and people speak a different language to the British when it comes to personal space...
Economy is the name of the game out here; people move as quickly, linger as little and travel as efficiently as possible. This is prompted by the breathtakingly restrictive streets favoured by Dutch town planners. Rather than strolling along hand in hand, couples instead choose to hop on the same bike. Now taking up less space than they would on the pavement, they can drift along at a more relaxed pace than if they walked.
If you don't have a bike and decide to take the tram, then don't expect to be offered a seat. In fact; expect every single person on the tram to prioritise their shopping bags over your comfort. This isn’t rudeness, it’s just that when you live crushed together you get very good at recruiting personal space...
Outside on the streets you can expect to get nowhere fast but at least you’ll receive fewer glares than on a bustling British high street... In the UK, I used to engage in at least one argument with a stranger per week – usually prompted by one of us accidentally stepping on the other – but I've ditched the habit since moving to Amsterdam...
I’m inclined to think that living cheek to cheek with hundreds of thousands of Dutch strangers is preparing me far better for England’s future than three years living in London did.
#207
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From: Toronto
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More FYI on commute times even in "LCF" friendly cities. and one is the one we are talking about.
GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.
https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
GTA residents have the longest commute times in Ontario, study shows - Toronto | Globalnews.ca
The last one is three years old but then it is at least a study of the Oslo area.
https://www.toi.no/travel-behaviour-...32991-836.html
Having said that, I am kind of surprised at the British stats, but I haven't been able to dig into the details yet.
#208
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From: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
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The one from Ontario refers to commuting in Toronto and the surrounding areas as taking a little under an hour a day, or close to 30 min each way, but doesn't break it down more than that. The one from Norway covers the whole country, not just Oslo and covers all travel (3.26 trips per day) so we can't conclude much about Oslo commuting.
Having said that, I am kind of surprised at the British stats, but I haven't been able to dig into the details yet.
Having said that, I am kind of surprised at the British stats, but I haven't been able to dig into the details yet.
Surprised or not it is still a commuting statistic and if you compare all of Norway to all of the US commuting times are better here. From the first link, "On average, Americans spent 23.7 minutes getting to work.". So there is no reason to assume LCF assists in commuting time based on statistics. However you get there time to get to work is measured in minutes. Not that I care that much but I simply am pointing out that there is no promise of shorter commute times in denser cities. I also was impressed with the monthly cost for the Brits in some areas, "The area reporting the most expensive journey is East Anglia with an average of £221 spent per month, closely followed by the South East at £192 per month and London at £176 per month. "
That is $288.00 a month and if that is transit costs that is way over priced. The article was talking about transit at the time of that quote. Still I haven't seen anything that indicates LCF leads to shorter commute times, considering New York has far fewer drivers than California.
https://patch.com/new-york/new-york-...ty-study-finds
I am just saying that it is often hinted that LCF and Mass transit make for shorter commutes for everyone. I haven't found that to be proven.
So I will just leave those links there and let each person draw what they will from them.
Last edited by Mobile 155; 05-20-17 at 09:29 PM.
#209
BBC - Capital - The gruelling, six-hour commute of Beijing?s workers
#210
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#211
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This one is:
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2..._from_work.pdf
Look at Norway and compare it to the US. Still doesn't show a relation to LCF and Shorter commute times.
#212
Your whole premise is idiotic: "nobody wants to live in crowded areas." So how the hell did they get so crowded if nobody wants to live there?
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#213
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From: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
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I compared different types of transportation to see how long it take to get from my home to work and from work to home, here are my results:
Public transit takes an average of 2 hours per day for a two way trip, and a lot longer if you have to stop and run errands along the way or miss the bus and have to wait in between. I only live 12 km from work, but there are thousands of people in GTA who spend 3-4 hours per day just to commute by public transit.
If I drive it takes an average of 30-35 minutes each way.
If I bike it's about 45 minutes each way.
Public transit is by far the slowest, most miserable and annoying way to get around.
#214
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This one is:
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2..._from_work.pdf
Look at Norway and compare it to the US. Still doesn't show a relation to LCF and Shorter commute times.
https://www.oecd.org/els/family/LMF2..._from_work.pdf
Look at Norway and compare it to the US. Still doesn't show a relation to LCF and Shorter commute times.I compared different types of transportation to see how long it take to get from my home to work and from work to home, here are my results:
Public transit takes an average of 2 hours per day for a two way trip, and a lot longer if you have to stop and run errands along the way or miss the bus and have to wait in between. I only live 12 km from work, but there are thousands of people in GTA who spend 3-4 hours per day just to commute by public transit.
If I drive it takes an average of 30-35 minutes each way.
If I bike it's about 45 minutes each way.
Public transit is by far the slowest, most miserable and annoying way to get around.
Public transit takes an average of 2 hours per day for a two way trip, and a lot longer if you have to stop and run errands along the way or miss the bus and have to wait in between. I only live 12 km from work, but there are thousands of people in GTA who spend 3-4 hours per day just to commute by public transit.
If I drive it takes an average of 30-35 minutes each way.
If I bike it's about 45 minutes each way.
Public transit is by far the slowest, most miserable and annoying way to get around.
Obviously the biking is the best. The transit option involves about 2 km of walking and I usually opt for a full surface route so I get a seat and am connected, but even if I go underground and have to stand, that segment is only 20 minutes and I can still read a newspaper or downloaded article. So it looks like I have a longer commute than someone else, but it is partly that I have a choice and chose slower because it works better for me.
Last edited by cooker; 05-21-17 at 09:04 AM.
#215
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I thought someone else brought up some of the others cities and compared them to Oslo or in the post they called it Dutch cities? It seems to me the subject of commuting times was brought up and multi hour commutes in California was mentioned as if the ones in Oslo and surrounding areas was better because of LCF? SO has the subject drifted off of that and onto the quote I posted from a Welsh commuter and a link I posted? Isn't it, LCF, Commute times and living places?
#216
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As I said, I wish Stadjer would settle this because he has spent a lot more time in various Dutch areas than I have. My impression, however, is that there are many many Dutch cities and suburbs that are not that dense relative to a pedestrian-oriented city, yet they are bikeable so the roads aren't that wide and distances aren't so sprawling as in areas where driving is the dominant mode for getting around between sprawling suburbs.
#217
Why do you send me a personal message that you will ignore my posts and then respond with such incivility? Rhetorical question-- could care less...
#218
As I said, I wish Stadjer would settle this because he has spent a lot more time in various Dutch areas than I have. My impression, however, is that there are many many Dutch cities and suburbs that are not that dense relative to a pedestrian-oriented city, yet they are bikeable so the roads aren't that wide and distances aren't so sprawling as in areas where driving is the dominant mode for getting around between sprawling suburbs.
To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
#219
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To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
#220
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To me it's pretty obvious-- in So. Cal., for example, you may not only love bikes and the sport of cycling, you may even enjoy the opportunity to ride your bike to work, but that does not diminish an appreciation for the many benefits that owning a car may afford, like earning a good living and having the money to travel to or even move to some place like Oslo, if that suits your fancy.
Nevertheless, I'm still hopeful you'll tell us about your own interest in living car free or light. Any thoughts on that?
#221
e.g., the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing somethin to not have the freedom to choose for yourself if no one has freedom? I don't buy that as the solution but I do see such thinking as underlying the LCF movement-- i.e., it's more about limiting choice with decisions made by state planners...
#222
If you appreciate cars, that is up to you, but since you are posting in a forum that isn't about that, your posts seem quite out of place. You almost never post about bikes elsewhere on the forum either, so it's almost as if you only come to the bike forums to talk about your love of cars. There are lots of forums for car lovers.
Nevertheless, I'm still hopeful you'll tell us about your own interest in living car free or light. Any thoughts on that?
Nevertheless, I'm still hopeful you'll tell us about your own interest in living car free or light. Any thoughts on that?
#223
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From: Toronto
Bikes: 1984 Trek 520; 2007 Bike Friday NWT; misc others
#224
Prefers Cicero

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From: Toronto
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People keep doing that fearmongering here, but never back it up with quotes. Actually, I was pointing out above that by living in an urban area, I have more options - I can bike, drive or take transit to work. A lot of people only have one option.
#225
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e.g., the same way it doesn't feel like you're missing somethin to not have the freedom to choose for yourself if no one has freedom? I don't buy that as the solution but I do see such thinking as underlying the LCF movement-- i.e., it's more about limiting choice with decisions made by state planners...
You normalize the widespread dominance of driving and sprawl, and by doing so ignore all the negative effects in order to focus on the benefits of being able to drive long distance in a shorter period of time, but cars like helicopters are noisy, violent motorized vehicles that cause developments to be more spread-out and sprawling, and such sprawling areas are more difficult to get around by biking, walking, and transit the same way it would be more difficult to get around in an area where everything was set up for helicopters as the dominant mode of transportation.
I mean, imagine if Oslo was reforming the city for ease of helicopter use instead of LCF! How much more difficult and unpleasant would it be to bike, walk, use transit, OR drive if everything was being converted to helicopter parking? Surely you can see how reducing driving and parking in a city makes it better in the same way that increasing helicopter travel would make it worse.





