none of you are sustainable
07-13-06, 08:50 AM
#26
Prefers Cicero
Originally Posted by velotimbe
Ive been mostly a lurker in this forum, because as an Environmental Educator, I find many of your discussions amusing. There are a lot of misconceptions around here as to what the impacts of your life are.
Well, I decided to chime in after I read a few of the responses in the last "sustainable" thread.
The real deal is that if you live in this country (USA) you will not be sustainable. End of story. I dont care how much you ride your bike, our infrastructure and lifestyle is irreversibly linked to oil. By simply living in a building and buying food at a grocery, you already consume more oil than the earth can support.
Sustainable is not a feel good thing that you are consuming less than the average american. Sustainable means that your lifestyle can be continued for generations without worry about running out of resources. This is simply not possible, even with the most meager lifestyles in the USA. Even "freegans" rely on the fat of the system to provide them with the excesses they find in the trash.
Why am I posting this? Well throughout bikeforums, I note that most people are fellow cyclists, just here to talk bikes. But in this forum, there seems to be a class system in place, where those that are "car-free" (which is a lie, nobody is car-free) are the "best" and the continually talk down to those that are "car-lite" as if they are in some way better people. And then there are those that think they are better because they left the USA, but they most likely did it on an airplane, an oil-based luxury that 90% of the world will never experience.
Im not challenging people to be more ecologically sound. I drive a car. I ride a bike too. Im just hoping that this caste system and claims of being "sustainable" will go away, because it just makes the people making those claims look ridiculous and petty.
Well, I decided to chime in after I read a few of the responses in the last "sustainable" thread.
The real deal is that if you live in this country (USA) you will not be sustainable. End of story. I dont care how much you ride your bike, our infrastructure and lifestyle is irreversibly linked to oil. By simply living in a building and buying food at a grocery, you already consume more oil than the earth can support.
Sustainable is not a feel good thing that you are consuming less than the average american. Sustainable means that your lifestyle can be continued for generations without worry about running out of resources. This is simply not possible, even with the most meager lifestyles in the USA. Even "freegans" rely on the fat of the system to provide them with the excesses they find in the trash.
Why am I posting this? Well throughout bikeforums, I note that most people are fellow cyclists, just here to talk bikes. But in this forum, there seems to be a class system in place, where those that are "car-free" (which is a lie, nobody is car-free) are the "best" and the continually talk down to those that are "car-lite" as if they are in some way better people. And then there are those that think they are better because they left the USA, but they most likely did it on an airplane, an oil-based luxury that 90% of the world will never experience.
Im not challenging people to be more ecologically sound. I drive a car. I ride a bike too. Im just hoping that this caste system and claims of being "sustainable" will go away, because it just makes the people making those claims look ridiculous and petty.
Enough with the pranks, Crichton - go back to writing fiction/
07-13-06, 08:55 AM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Seattle, LA, Suzhou
Posts: 205
Bikes: Hugh Porter criterium, Davidson Discovery (touring), GT road, Nishiki Yukon MTB (which I hate)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by velotimbe
After reading all the responses, I think many missed the point.....
Keep up the good work you all, but stop the bragging. Get it?
Keep up the good work you all, but stop the bragging. Get it?
And I also think that when people share their experiences about commuting or their attempts at being carfree or carlite, they might actually be sharing what they've learned, and learning from other people.
What have we learned from you today?
07-13-06, 09:02 AM
#28
Velocipedic Practitioner
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 488
Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Bianchi Volpe, Trek 5000, Santana Arriva tandem, Pashley Sovereign, among others
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by velotimbe
Nobody is car-free. That was my main intent with this original post. Yes, many of you can look outside and not see a car. But you get mail right? Delivered how? Oh, did you buy groceries? Hmm, how do those get to the store? This is one of the targets of Environmental Ed, to show students that groceries do NOT come from the grocery store, the typical product in the USA has travelled 1200 miles to get on the shelf, and the average USA meal has traveled around 9000 miles. So if you eat in the USA, you are not car-free.
If you want to get REALLY technical about it, the groceries aren't delivered by cars, they are delivered by large trucks. Seems to me that you have a flawed definition of car free. My definition of car free means not owning a personal automobile. It does not mean to be independent of motor transit such as public transportation. That's just impractical and most car-freers I know have learned how to be MORE practical and MORE wise in their transportation choices. I don't know anyone that claims to be car free that also claims to be completely oil free. Some just reduce their dependence and more power to'em.
you are simply "car-free" for the social status that lends you at work, here on this forum, etc.
WoW! Now that's a new one on me. I guess we've finally made it, fellas. Being car free is now recognized as high society.
Most people do not truly understand the extent of their actions, and being "car-free" as defined in this forum is mostly a feel-good thing that only reduces a fraction of your personal impact on the environment.
Nope. Being car free is living a lifestyle that is not dependent on a personal motor vehicle for transportation. Apparently you haven't been able to achieve that. Too bad for you. It's really liberating.
Now, it is a VERY GOOD step, and we must keep working in the right direction, but please stop the BS about how you are so "ecologically sound" or "holistic" because you ride a bike. I ride a bike too. Big friggen deal. There is a lot more needed than just riding your bike to work.
Maybe..but it would certainly be helpful if more people rode their bike to work more often. Maybe you should try giving up your car and following suit. You may just learn something.
Overall, I am not saying to stop riding a bike, I am just saying cut the crap, because in the big picture, being car-free is only the first step. And stop the car-bashing, it wont get you anywhere.
I see your point. It is much more productive to bash those that live car-free.
I am an American living in BC by the way...
Yet another example of American pollution spilling over the Canadian border. It's just a matter of time now before we start reading of Canadian efforts to build a big wall ...
If you want to get REALLY technical about it, the groceries aren't delivered by cars, they are delivered by large trucks. Seems to me that you have a flawed definition of car free. My definition of car free means not owning a personal automobile. It does not mean to be independent of motor transit such as public transportation. That's just impractical and most car-freers I know have learned how to be MORE practical and MORE wise in their transportation choices. I don't know anyone that claims to be car free that also claims to be completely oil free. Some just reduce their dependence and more power to'em.
you are simply "car-free" for the social status that lends you at work, here on this forum, etc.
WoW! Now that's a new one on me. I guess we've finally made it, fellas. Being car free is now recognized as high society.
Most people do not truly understand the extent of their actions, and being "car-free" as defined in this forum is mostly a feel-good thing that only reduces a fraction of your personal impact on the environment.
Nope. Being car free is living a lifestyle that is not dependent on a personal motor vehicle for transportation. Apparently you haven't been able to achieve that. Too bad for you. It's really liberating.
Now, it is a VERY GOOD step, and we must keep working in the right direction, but please stop the BS about how you are so "ecologically sound" or "holistic" because you ride a bike. I ride a bike too. Big friggen deal. There is a lot more needed than just riding your bike to work.
Maybe..but it would certainly be helpful if more people rode their bike to work more often. Maybe you should try giving up your car and following suit. You may just learn something.
Overall, I am not saying to stop riding a bike, I am just saying cut the crap, because in the big picture, being car-free is only the first step. And stop the car-bashing, it wont get you anywhere.
I see your point. It is much more productive to bash those that live car-free.
I am an American living in BC by the way...
Yet another example of American pollution spilling over the Canadian border. It's just a matter of time now before we start reading of Canadian efforts to build a big wall ...
07-13-06, 09:08 AM
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Scotland
Posts: 88
Bikes: Focus Culebro, Corratec X-Vert Motion & Bacchetta Giro26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by velotimbe
But you get mail right? Delivered how?
07-13-06, 09:56 AM
#30
Crankenstein
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037
Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by velotimbe
There are billions of people in this world that are truly car-free. Their lives are based on sustinence, where ours are based on glutton.
There is not one person on this planet that meets YOUR definition of "car-free"
Third world contries that have lives 'based on sustinence' recieve aid from other countries. They use tools made of metal and plastic that are manufactured. They use electricity, from plants that burn oil or coal (mostly), that require parts that are brought in from other areas and/or countries. Oh... and don't forget medicines trucked, flown, or shipped in from other areas.
The only reasonable definition of 'Car-free' would be a person who doesn't have a personal auto.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
07-13-06, 10:19 AM
#31
1. e4 Nf6
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 78º44`W, 42º46`N
Posts: 871
Bikes: Mercian KoM with Rohloff, Bike Friday NWT, Pogliaghi Italcorse (1979)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
There is not one person on this planet that meets YOUR definition of "car-free"
07-13-06, 10:21 AM
#32
Junior Member
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 20
Bikes: Trek 1000, P.O.S. MTB
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by palmersperry
My mail was delivered by someone using one of these.
owned.
07-13-06, 10:29 AM
#33
JAFC
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hammond, IN
Posts: 84
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The OP also seems to assume that the only reason to be car free is to help the environment.
This is very untrue.
I'm a vegetarian. Most people assume its because I think its wrong to kill animals for food, when in reality it is primarily for purely selfish reasons. It makes me healthier.
I want to be car free for the same reason. Using a car makes me less healthy.
I am working to be car free for me. I have not achieved it yet.
I don't think people are "bragging" about leading a more sustainable lifestyle. They are expressing pride in their accomplishments to encourage like minded people.
This is very untrue.
I'm a vegetarian. Most people assume its because I think its wrong to kill animals for food, when in reality it is primarily for purely selfish reasons. It makes me healthier.
I want to be car free for the same reason. Using a car makes me less healthy.
I am working to be car free for me. I have not achieved it yet.
I don't think people are "bragging" about leading a more sustainable lifestyle. They are expressing pride in their accomplishments to encourage like minded people.
07-13-06, 10:44 AM
#34
Crankenstein
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037
Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Alekhine
Great point, but yea there are, only they're indigenous little tribes deep in the jungles of places like Mindanao and Borneo. Certainly not "billions" though, as he claims. Sheesh.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
07-13-06, 10:47 AM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Spur TX
Posts: 1,991
Bikes: Schwinn folder; SixThreeZero EvryJourney
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I think the negative impact of the car, and the suburban sprawl that it implies, must be the elephant in Environmental Education's living room that no one is allowed to talk about for fear of upsetting their funding sources.
07-13-06, 10:50 AM
#36
1. e4 Nf6
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 78º44`W, 42º46`N
Posts: 871
Bikes: Mercian KoM with Rohloff, Bike Friday NWT, Pogliaghi Italcorse (1979)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
Really? Go find ONE tribe that doesn't have a machete that someone has brought in from somewhere. I'll bet you can't do it.
07-13-06, 11:03 AM
#38
put our Heads Together
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: southeast pennsylvania
Posts: 3,155
Bikes: a mountain bike with a cargo box on the back and aero bars on the front. an old well-worn dahon folding bike
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
The only reasonable definition of 'Car-free' would be a person who doesn't have a personal auto.
07-13-06, 12:12 PM
#39
Crankenstein
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037
Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by Alekhine
My friend Norman lived with such a tribe in Indonesia for a month. Literally everything they had was of their own making. I'll send him an email and ask the name if you'd like.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
07-13-06, 12:28 PM
#40
Prefers Cicero
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
Ask him. I have no problem believing that ALMOST everything they used they made themselves, but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they use NOTHING from outside their little corner of the world.
07-13-06, 12:42 PM
#41
GATC
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
Ask him. I have no problem believing that ALMOST everything they used they made themselves, but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they use NOTHING from outside their little corner of the world.
07-13-06, 12:46 PM
#42
Crankenstein
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Spokane
Posts: 4,037
Bikes: Novara Randonee (TankerBelle)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Originally Posted by cooker
That would be an overly strict definition of sustainable. If they have one or two goods produced from outside, it simply means they are in contact with the rest of the world, not that they are depleting the planet's resources.
__________________
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
"There is no greater wonder than the way the face and character of a woman fit so perfectly in a man's mind, and stay there, and he could never tell you why. It just seems it was the thing he most wanted." Robert Louis Stevenson
07-13-06, 01:49 PM
#43
bragi
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: seattle, WA
Posts: 2,911
Bikes: LHT
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
Hi Velo:
Like I said, you must have expected the negative repsonse before you even posted; I mean it's a forum for people who've given up their cars, or who are thinking about it.
I do think you're being too hard on people. You are correct in asserting that none of us is truly car free; in modern cities, we simply can't do without delivery trucks, busses, fire trucks, etc. We need to move big, heavy stuff around. But we don't all need our own personal car. I don't imagine for a second that my small act of ditching the car will by itself save the planet, but it does give me a certain small satisfaction that I've at least cut my own CO2 emissions by over half, and it allows me to be more credible when I talk to kids about the environment in my science classes. I don't think I'm superior to others just because I ride my bike -I'm intelligent enough to understand that the bike itself is a product of the industrial infrastructure that's causing so much trouble. But it's a start, and I don't need to feel ashamed of it. And, in reading most of the posts, I don't see the huge, nauseating waves of smug self-satisfaction that you seem to see. People are doing what they can, and they come to this forum share their weirdness. Yes, a few people get smug. But most don't, and it's not fair for you to paint everyone with the same haughty brush, you dirty car-driver. (But, if you posted just to stir the pot, you've done a wonderful job. I've had fun reading this thread...
)
Like I said, you must have expected the negative repsonse before you even posted; I mean it's a forum for people who've given up their cars, or who are thinking about it.
I do think you're being too hard on people. You are correct in asserting that none of us is truly car free; in modern cities, we simply can't do without delivery trucks, busses, fire trucks, etc. We need to move big, heavy stuff around. But we don't all need our own personal car. I don't imagine for a second that my small act of ditching the car will by itself save the planet, but it does give me a certain small satisfaction that I've at least cut my own CO2 emissions by over half, and it allows me to be more credible when I talk to kids about the environment in my science classes. I don't think I'm superior to others just because I ride my bike -I'm intelligent enough to understand that the bike itself is a product of the industrial infrastructure that's causing so much trouble. But it's a start, and I don't need to feel ashamed of it. And, in reading most of the posts, I don't see the huge, nauseating waves of smug self-satisfaction that you seem to see. People are doing what they can, and they come to this forum share their weirdness. Yes, a few people get smug. But most don't, and it's not fair for you to paint everyone with the same haughty brush, you dirty car-driver. (But, if you posted just to stir the pot, you've done a wonderful job. I've had fun reading this thread...
)
07-13-06, 02:47 PM
#46
Vanned.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,244
Bikes: 2006 Motobecane Le Champ SL, 2006 Mercier Kilo TT, 2004 Gary Fisher Tassajara
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Curt Kurt
I think the OP is confusing car free and oil free
07-13-06, 03:08 PM
#47
1. e4 Nf6
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 78º44`W, 42º46`N
Posts: 871
Bikes: Mercian KoM with Rohloff, Bike Friday NWT, Pogliaghi Italcorse (1979)
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by bmclaughlin807
Ask him. I have no problem believing that ALMOST everything they used they made themselves, but I find it nearly impossible to believe that they use NOTHING from outside their little corner of the world.
And I don't think it's impossible. From what he told me, they weren't exactly on the edge of a city. They were deep in the jungles of Borneo, and he needed a guide to even find them.
07-13-06, 03:24 PM
#48
Prefers Cicero
Some degree of industrialization is sustainable. there's no reason we can't have bicycles in the future.
There are a few main things which are not sustainable....feeding 6 billion people using massive petrochemical input, polluting the planet with persisting toxins, paving over farmland and depleting topsoil, and maintaining our level of energy expenditure.
What would be sustainable?
"Organic" agriculture and a mostly vegetarian diet. I don't know how many people the earth can sustainably feed, but it's a lot. Unfortunately, it's probably also a lot less than 6 billion.
Reliance on sustainable energy, using far less energy than we do today. Since we squander huge amounts of energy on trivial activities we can do that. Especially with a smaller population.
Elimination of persisting toxins dioxin, PCBs, etc.
Population reduction through various means...voluntary, incentives, war, disease, famine. Partly we'll choose the methods, and partly they will be visited upon us.
There are a few main things which are not sustainable....feeding 6 billion people using massive petrochemical input, polluting the planet with persisting toxins, paving over farmland and depleting topsoil, and maintaining our level of energy expenditure.
What would be sustainable?
"Organic" agriculture and a mostly vegetarian diet. I don't know how many people the earth can sustainably feed, but it's a lot. Unfortunately, it's probably also a lot less than 6 billion.
Reliance on sustainable energy, using far less energy than we do today. Since we squander huge amounts of energy on trivial activities we can do that. Especially with a smaller population.
Elimination of persisting toxins dioxin, PCBs, etc.
Population reduction through various means...voluntary, incentives, war, disease, famine. Partly we'll choose the methods, and partly they will be visited upon us.
07-13-06, 03:35 PM
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I have no illusion that I am "sustainable", but I figure not driving my car as much as possible does a great deal to lessen my impact on the world. That is good enough for me. If more people refrained from drivng their car for even a few of their trips it would add up fast.
07-13-06, 03:48 PM
#50
...there I was...
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: ...I left Hawaii for this? This is frickin cold!...
Posts: 204
Bikes: ...Surly LHT - blue...
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Originally Posted by velotimbe
To be sustainable, you would need to build your own house, use no electricity (even renewables are oil-based), grow your own food or with a very local-based group of people, and you probably wouldnt be able to ride a bike, unless of course it was steel. Carbon is petrol-based and Aluminium requires massive amounts of energy to refine. 5lbs of aluminium = 8 gallons of oil.
...ok, this is plain silly... I need to build a fire which means burning trees so I can make my own tools to build my own house so I can say I'm sustainable??? I think you're saying give up...
<brag>I am not sustainable. I am sustainably minded. I am slowly coming to my senses and believing in the vision that every little bit helps. Every bike ride to work is 0.8 gallons of gas not burned. Every trip to the store saves 0.1 gallons. I help. I try. I don't nay-say anyone else who puts forth effort and shows motivation.</brag>
<definition>Sustainability is a state of mind and way of life. Incorporating sustainability principles, concepts and approaches in both formal and informal education processes will help institutionalize these concepts and encourage their widespread adoption. This section offers many resources and organizations that promote sustainability education.</definition>
...wow... and I did all this on a computer... I feel like I should be carving into a stone tablet with my fingernails...
B.H.